My Australia Story: Emerita Professor Samina Yasmeen AM

Maggie Jiang: Hello, welcome to My Australia Story. I'm Maggie Jiang. In this series, we celebrate the stories of individuals whose journeys have left a lasting impact on Australia's multicultural fabric. Today we are honored to be joined by Professor Samina Yasmeen, a distinguished academic, policy maker and cultural leader, and a recipient of the Order of Australia. Professor Yasmeen has played a pivotal role in shaping Australia's understanding of migration, multiculturalism, and social cohesion. Through her extensive research and teaching, she has made profound contributions to Australian public discourse, while also serving as a tireless advocate for the integration of diverse voices in society. Thank you Professor Yasmeen, for being here with us. We look forward to hearing your inspiring story.

Professor Yasmeen, you have a very rich and international life, from Pakistan to Australia, from academia to policymaking. Can you take us back to your first memories of arriving in Australia?

Samina Yasmeen: Yeah, I arrived in Australia in February 1979, uh, to study at the ANU and my very first memory is that there was no one to receive me at the airport, so I had no idea where to go. So I went to someone at the counter and said, I need to go to ANU, and he said, INU? and I'm saying, no, ANU. So he repeated INU and I'm saying no. And then he turned around to someone and said, Sheila wants to go to INU, and I'm thinking, I'm not Sheila. Why is he sending me to INU? But anyway, I finally ended up at ANU and city itself was not different from what I had already known because my father was here as a Colombo Plan student in the 1960s, and he would share a lot of photographs with us of almost every city. So I knew what Canberra looked like and it was very much like Islamabad that I had come from. So it was quite comforting. Uh, ANU was a very welcoming space for students, but I did miss my family. And so I remembered not having the same communication technologies. I will get a call from my parents, three minutes only, every first Friday of the month, and it would go very quickly. Uh, once they forgot to call me because they were too busy, so I spent the whole time waiting for it, then booked a call and it took 15 hours to be connected for those three minutes call. I spent the night in the department, sleeping on the desk, waiting for connection. And when my mum answered, she was not pleased. She wanted me to be tough and self reliant, so I had to put up with that. Uh, the other bit that I learned was, even though I had lived on my own away from home, uh, since I was 14, but I had to get used to the idea of buying things for myself, which I wasn't used to. Another uh, incident that I remember is going to the shops to buy jeans for my youngest brother. Not knowing how much does it cost to buy things, I had $200 in my pocket and my friend who was walking with me, as soon as he found out that I had that much money, he refused to walk with me because he thought I was quite naive, I could be mugged and why was I doing, walking around with $200? That took me some time to understand that I didn't need to have so much money. And so working with those changes, experiences, then getting used to the environment, uh, it was quite, uh, interesting, new. Bits of them I knew, others I had to learn through.

MJ: So, were there any moments of culture shocks or any unexpected connection that stood out?

SY: Well, the first cultural shock that I got, which I later on came to cherish because I thought it gave me an insight into Australian sense of humor, was being asked by the warden of Bruce Hall, where I was staying, to go to his office. So I did. I was jet lagged, uh, a young student who has just come from Pakistan. She sat me down and said, can you give me your parents' address in case you die? I have to inform them. And I'm thinking, what? I've just come from Pakistan and he's talking about me dying. But then later on, I realized he was doing his duty to know what my contact details were. But the way he put it, it was a very Australian sense of humor. What I found common connection was, uh, Pakistan cricket team came to Canberra within the first few weeks, and suddenly all my uh, classmates wanted me to go to cricket with them. And it was pretty nice when the cricket team gave me some passes, and I could show off and take them with me. But that cemented the relationship, even though I know nothing about cricket, but at least they enjoyed it and I made some friends.

MJ: Great. So, in your perspective, has the concept of home changed over these years? Do you feel like you carry multiple identities nowadays?

SY: I think for me, once you leave your home, whatever that is, once you migrate, you turn into more like a bird who has a nest and then flies out, but then travels across boundaries, different countries and is part of all those places where the bird flies. Uh, it may or may not go back to the original nest, but the connection is there. So I think in the same way, I think for me leaving Pakistan meant that I left my nest. Uh, when I came to Australia, I didn't lose that sense of home being in Pakistan. I still consider Islamabad to be my home. But then I also consider Australia to be my home or Perth to be my home. Uh, just like I miss the bits of Pakistan when I'm here, uh, if I'm in Pakistan, I miss the flora, fauna of Australia, so I literally miss it. I want to be back here and see the trees and the birds, uh, the wild flowers. So I think the two homes stay there side by side for me. Uh, you never lose connection with anything and you learn the value of appreciating what the both places give you. Now does that make me someone with multiple identities? I think we all have multiple identities. Uh, you know, I'm a woman from Asian background who migrated unintentionally to Australia, I came as a student and then stayed here. But then I've been an academic, I've worked in different places, I've been on ministerial councils, which gave me an insight into how policies are made. And of course I'm a wife, a daughter, a friend to lots of people. So all those multiple identities are part of me. But then there's some identities that are given to me even though I may not share them totally. And what I really remember is people suddenly shifting from calling me an academic to a Muslim academic after 9/11, whereas before that, if they had to use another prefix, they would say Pakistani or South Asian academic. So I think these labels sometimes are given by people, uh, also because I dress in Pakistani style, uh, people automatically assume that I must be very conservative. And so all those labels that I get, uh, are not necessarily me, but it doesn't change the fact that I do have different identities that luckily coexist peacefully with each other.

MJ: Professor Samina, you are one of the very first in Australia that introduced religion into the study of international relations. So were there any resistance in the early days?

SY: Interestingly, when I offered study of Islam in the 1990s, there was very little resistance. My colleagues were happy for me to offer this unit to first, at honors level and then undergrad, because as a quid pro quo for me giving up, uh, teaching Australian foreign policy, uh, and so I enjoyed teaching. Uh, when it came to setting up the Centre for Muslim States and Societies, an idea that I had started developing in the 1990s, that's when I faced some resistance. Uh, it was very hidden, but it was there. And I think it could be that by the time the ideas developed and it came out, it was already a post 9/11 era, people had this assumption that somehow Muslims and Islam are not the same as Australian democratic system. Muslims are terrorists, and so why would we have a centre that focuses on Muslim states and societies? So even though Professor Alan Robson, who was the Vice-Chancellor, he was very supportive of the idea from the moment I discussed it with him. He said, yeah, let's go ahead and find a way around. But within the system there would be delays put into it, paperwork would be delayed, then questions would be asked as to how the centre would coexist with political science and international relations and what would be my role in both these two subsets of the University of Western Australia. So that's where the tension was. But I think, I was very committed to the fact that we need to have a centre like that. It wasn't as a result of 9/11, as I said, it was before 9/11. And so I wanted to make sure, especially in the post 9/11 days, that people need to understand that there's a diversity of experiences, interpretations and perspectives in the Muslim community. Not just simply in Australia but globally as well, just like in any other religion. And that for them to make valid recent judgements, they need to learn about this diversity, but also they need to learn about how Muslims live their lives, not just in Australia but in the region as well. So I guess I persevered and one of the inspirations that I had was what my mother who by then had passed away in 2003, she often used to say, don't forget to light a candle so that it can light other candles and then there will be light. And this idea that we somehow need to find light in areas where there's darkness, it just made sure that I kept at this. So my husband, along with Professor Alan Robson, were extremely supportive of the idea. A lot of other people have come around in the process, including our head of school who really valued the Centre itself. But I think having set it up, gradually people who are open to this idea, they've supported it and have continued to do where I started.

MJ: Professor Yasmeen, were there any personal values or beliefs you brought with you from Pakistan that you think helped you thrive in this country?

SY: I was brought up by a very progressive Muslim woman, Begum Sarfraz Iqbal. She patronized all the literature and arts and was engaged in lots of social welfare projects. She instilled in us from the very beginning a strict understanding that we have to be Muslims, but we have to be Muslims with critical thinking. So religious teachings, we had to accept them, but we also had to think about the information that we were getting. So that was one value, critical thinking, search for knowledge. The other bit that I learned from her was her commitment that both her daughters and sons would be equally educated. And so that came from her commitment to fairness and belief that you have to educate women, and so that introduced me to the idea of fairness and equality. And because it was presented to me within the framework of Islam, my religion, uh, it helped me develop a very strong belief system. So I've grown up, and these are the values I brought with me, uh, grown up with the idea that God has his own plan for us. It's not that it's predetermined, but that God knows what's good for us and we walk on those parts with his blessing. Also, another thing that I brought with me was love of softer side of human nature. It really goes back to the fact that we grew up in an environment where our house was full of poets, writers, artists, musicians, politicians, but all of them were there because they loved knowledge, they loved art, they loved literature. So when I came to Australia, I came not just simply with this idea that you have to be searching for knowledge and you have to be fair and treat everyone with kindness and integrity, but also that in all that, you don't miss out on the softer part of human nature. And know that people, whatever they look on the outside, have another softer side that you need to appreciate.

MJ: Professor Yasmeen, you've engaged with policy makers at the highest levels. Can you share with us an example where we see academic research made a great impact on public understanding?

SY: My answer would be shaped by my own understanding of how knowledge and practice changes. I think it's an organic process. Different people come up with ideas and they gradually move upwards into the realm where policy makers operate and decide what policies should be adopted. And so it's not just one person or another whose ideas shape what happens, a sum total of those ideas really ends up changing the structures in which we live. So with that, even though I've been very lucky to work in lots of different spaces where I came across questions of immigration, status resolution, Australian identity, like in national Australia, the Council for the Order of Australia, but I think one thing that always stays with me is my very first experience of being on Australian Multicultural Advisory Committee. That was a sort of game changer for me. I must admit I joined that group not being sure whether what we say or do would make a difference, but there were a lot of us, very committed practitioners and academics, that we all got together and we suggested ideas about a multicultural policy for Australia. When we gave those ideas, as I said I wasn't sure what would be picked up, but I was really elated when I found out that the government had accepted most of those ideas, especially setting up an Australian Multicultural Council, which provides a venue where people from different backgrounds come together and can guide the government into what kind of policy dealing with multicultural Australia needs to be developed. Uh, it was accepted. Now it's at a point where one of our former students, uh, Isabella, a very energetic young woman, she's serving on the Council. So I guess that was something that I remember always, that if everyone comes together, is guided by a commitment to do the best for everyone and not just simply one's own self or the community, you can come up with different ideas that can change the policy. So the People of Australia report that was accepted by the Australian government of the time, to me, gives that confidence.

MJ: Professor Yasmeen, how do you see the role of Muslim women evolving, both in the community and in the broader society?

SY: Well, that role has evolved a lot since the early days when Muslim women started living in Australia. In the early days of migration of Muslims from especially Turkey, and what's today's Pakistan, India, it was shaped by the value systems that men brought with them here, so when women accompanied them, they were shaped by these value systems. For example, uh, there was a case where the husband would not let the wife and the daughter go out, until it was asked by the judge that he has to do that to make sure that they are not acting more like slaves, or held in, in some form of prison. Uh, but I think gradually, women of today, Muslim women, uh, they exhibit a very strong sense of what I refer to as the agentic activism, uh, they have an agency, they have a commitment, and they're making a difference in Australia. To some extent, you could see that even in the 1960s and 1970s when the initial Muslim organizations started emerging, so men ran those organizations and women helped them within the family sphere. But now we have come to a very different space. There's been more Muslim migration into Australia, uh, people have come not just simply say from Turkey, Lebanon, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan or Albania, but now they've come from a number of countries from the Middle East, South Asia and also Africa and others who went to other western countries but then came to Australia. So the Muslim image and Muslim story is very different now. This Muslim, uh, community is shaped also by the global developments that have happened. So 9/11 is one, a major development, but also the rise and then fall of ISIS is another one. Uh, all those developments have created an image of Muslim women being victims or not strong enough, uh, not resilient, or maybe party to terrorist tendencies. What I notice is that among the Muslim women in Australia today, there's a very strong urge to change those perceptions. So you do have Muslim female leaders emerging who are questioning these beliefs and then they're showing with their actions that they're not victims. They have an agency of their own and they're doing that in different spheres, especially because now we also have second and third generation Muslim women. They're professionally active, they're educated, uh, they play their role in the society, even in politics. The non-governmental organizations that deal either just with Muslim issues or with immigrant issues, I see a lot of Muslim women being very active in there. So it's not all a case of a negative story for Muslim women, there's a lot of positivity as well. But there are areas that we still need to acknowledge where changes haven't been as good as I would expect. There are sections of the Muslim community that still carry misogynistic ideas, and they're sustained, not just by men but also by women. And so there are women who suffer because of that different kind of abuse, either as children or as wives or as sisters or as daughters. And then there's also an additional form of abuse which is emerging, more so in the more recent days, is a technology facilitated abuse of women or girl child. And I think that's an area in which Muslim women still need to be more active. But overall, the story of Muslim women in Australia, not just in the Muslim community but also in the wider community, for me is one of uh, positive change with a lot of promise.

MJ: Your research has often intersected with both emotionally and politically charged issues. So how do you maintain objectivity while also advocating for social changes?

SY: As I had said earlier, I was brought up by a very progressive Muslim woman. My mother instilled not just in me, but also my other three siblings, the tendency to accept what's there but also go beyond that. And she also instilled in me the fact that not everyone would agree with you. And so you need to learn from whatever is around to deal with that. And I guess the fact that I was given that very strong grounding in a religious belief system, I had a good relationship with God and I still do. So that enabled me to deal with challenges that come because sometimes it's very personal, sometimes it also relates to what I do in my different identities. But then there's another learning that I got. In Pakistan, my teachers were very good. They taught me the value of being fair and objective. So what I brought with me from Pakistan, it was further reinforced by my teachers at Australian National University, and my supervisor, Mr. Jeffrey Dukes and Professor Desmond Ball, they taught me that there's a difference between the declared policies and the actual policies of governments. Now, that was within the context of geopolitical understandings, but I think it also applies to social relations and other relationships in our lives. So I've picked up those learnings and I've used them to deal with difficult situations, uh, and also see what is coming my way and how do I relate to that. And in that, I've often remembered what Henry Kissinger once said somewhere, that a good leader is one who knows his, but her as well, limits, but also wants to transcend them. I'm not a leader, but I think that lesson is there. And I do try and face situations when they can be very tough, to say, I know where I'm coming from, but I need to go beyond my limits to see, is there another perspective. It's really about putting yourself in the shoes of someone else, or many others, that you start getting a better idea and understanding of what could be your answer. And I guess I've been lucky that for a large part of my life, it’s been easy for me in that sense.

MJ: Thank you, you’ve been very modest. You've served on multiple ministerial, um, level councils dealing with multiculturalism and immigration issues. How do you think we're progressing in these aspects? Do you think Australia's advanced or left behind?

SY: I think we have to be very proud of the fact that Australian multicultural story is one of the best in the world. You know, just in the Muslim space for example, they're Muslims from 80 plus different countries and with different languages, but if we look at our own figures, a number of Australians have got at least one parent who's been born overseas. So gradually the government has had to revisit how it deals with multiculturalism, uh, so compared to the White Australia Policy, which came to an end in early 1970s, the government has shifted, over a period of time, in coming up with ideas as to how do we deal with a multicultural Australia. There's been a move away from talking about assimilation to one saying that we need to have an integrated, socially cohesive community in Australia. I think that's a positive development. Uh, there are different spaces in which we see the impact of that. Uh, we see how communities who come into Australia, what their needs are and how can we meet them, and then not just simply meet those needs, but how do we engage them more broadly in the Australian society. So there is definitely a shift. It's a positive shift. It doesn't mean that there aren't any areas where there isn't a weakness now, but I think one area that I'm very conscious of, where we need more work, is building resilience among our younger generation. And I'm not talking about those say 16-18 plus, I'm talking about young kids because the children of Australia today, reflecting the multicultural diversity, are growing up in a very different world. So they get access to information through social media, through their own families in whatever back home it happens to be, uh, from the media, from the social circles, and against the background of all the developments. Not all of them are positive. The tensions, for example in India, Pakistan, in Palestine, uh, Israel, Ukraine and Sudan, just to name a few. Against the background of the, all those tensions, they really need to navigate their identities. And there is a risk if we don't help them to really understand what does it mean to be a resilient Australian young person, we’ll end up missing the point and not helping them. And so I think there's a very strong need now for the Australian government and society to encourage these young people to develop resilience as an Australian, but also not close off the options for bringing their views to the table because that's really where we set the basis of a stronger, cohesive, multicultural Australia.

MJ: Can you share a moment in your career where you see tangible changes made, um, in public understanding or social cohesion, that due to your work or your colleagues' work?

SY: Well, I will say again, I think we all bring different ideas and together they shape the way people look at issues. So I don't want to claim that everything that's happened in the Muslim space is because of what I did. I think a lot of people have done a lot of work. But one of the memories that stay with me is giving a lot of interviews and sharing ideas about Muslim identities and their diversity. And especially when I started appearing on ABC in a program, uh, Sunday night with John Cleary, uh, one Sunday every month for a few years, I realized that there was still misunderstanding about Islam and Muslims. So people would call in and they could talk about any issues. Some of them were very negative, but I had to sort of talk to them and give them my understanding of the diversity of Muslim responses. Uh, and at other times they were there just to, wishing to have their ideas, positive ideas, reinforced about Muslims. So I guess if I have to look back, what I could say is that Australia today is different from what it used to be in 2001, and which was different from what it used to be in 1990. But I think I've played a little bit of role in shaping the views of Muslims, especially Muslim women, not just being in one mode, but having different ideas with different lived experiences.

MJ: So what does multiculturalism mean to you, let's say beyond festival, beyond food, especially in the context of social policy and international identity?

SY: I think for me, true multiculturalism is one where we accept people for what they are irrespective of their ethnicity, their religion, their background, the languages they speak, and they're treated as equal, and a conscious effort is made, or maybe subconscious effort, is made by everyone to engage everyone, uh, with an idea of relative equality and fairness. That's what a true multicultural society for me needs to be. But it also has to have a very significant element to it. It never stops learning about how it can make itself better. There has to be a continuous process of revisiting what is there, and how we can change it and make it better. And at the same time, a true multicultural society for me is one where you do not have to leave part of you away from you. You don't come to Australia with certain ideas and only share those that suit everyone. Uh, a good multicultural society enables its citizens to share ideas, even if they're different, but helps them share them in a respectful and caring way. I think that's what multiculturalism for me is, equality, fairness, but never stopping at what we've achieved and constant search for making it better.

MJ: As someone who deeply connect with both academia and community, how do you navigate your identity as a Muslim woman, a scholar and a public intellectual in Australian society?

SY: So your question takes me back to the time when I was coming back from Pakistan and my mother was asked by the then Defense Minister Mir Ali Ahmed Talpur, to make sure that I met him before leaving for Australia. So when I met him early in the morning, he gave me a few books, and he also said that he hoped that I would help develop, uh, promote understanding of Islam. So as a young scholar who was setting up her base in Australia, beginning to start teaching, oh no, actually I wasn't teaching in those days, still doing my PhD or just trying to build my career, I couldn't understand why a student of, of international relations would be given these books. But when I started reading those books, I learned a very important concept, duties of commission and omission, what Muslims are supposed to do and what they are not supposed to do as Muslims. And so I made sure that when I learn about Islam and also see what other knowledge I get, that I am fair and honest and respect the views of others. There's a very strong element of kindness to human beings. With that also was this idea of the key, or research, search for knowledge. It fitted in well with what I had grown up with. So I have constantly, every time when there's any challenge or difficulty, gone back to that sense of saying, what am I supposed to do and what am I not supposed to do? What I'm supposed to do is to be honest, fair and seek knowledge. What I'm not supposed to do is to be unfair to others and deny them their, their right to have their opinions. So that's where I live my life. But where there's also a very important aspect of me, which is that I can understand everyone's point of view, but for me, what is non-negotiable is my Muslim identity, in the way I understand, in the way I have a relationship with God. I stick to that and I basically work on the assumption that people have to accept me with all that I bring to this world. I am who I am, and I owe a lot to my mother for this because she lived her life like this. And I owe a lot to my husband, James Trevelyan, a British Australian who came here as a young kid, and my father and other family members who never let me forget that, to say, do everything you can, but stay true to yourself.

MJ: That's fantastic. Professor Yasmin, you mentor so many young leaders throughout your career, and can you share with us what are the essential qualities or skills you think a young leader should have nowadays?

SY: It's always been the same for me. Fairness and kindness to others. You have to do that. Commitment to democratic norms, and not just simply in Australia but elsewhere as well. Willingness and a commitment to working out what others need and what their perceptions are. For too many people, knowledge means getting information that reinforces their ideas. They have to learn to consciously seek ideas that question their ideas, and then make decisions. So very careful, courageous, good leaders, young and not young, need to be open, fair with integrity, and willingness to go beyond their limits.

MJ: Professor Yasmeen, what do you think is the most important Australian value that, how binds a nation together?

SY: Fairness to everyone and respect and practice of democratic norms, in its true sense.

MJ: Professor Yasmeen, thank you so much for sharing your incredible story with us today. Your dedication to advancing academic understanding, advocating for social cohesion, and contributing to Australia's multicultural dialogue is truly inspiring. The work you do is a testament to the power of cross-cultural engagement and the positive change one individual can bring. We look forward to seeing how your continued efforts will shape the future of Australia.

To our viewers, thank you for joining us on My Australia Story. We will continue to highlight the voices and contributions of individuals who are helping to shape Australia's diverse and vibrant identity. See you next time.