My Australia Story: Dr. Cindy Smith

Maggie Jiang: Welcome to My Australia Story, where we explore the journeys of people who've made Australia home and helped shape its future. Today we’re joined by Dr. Cindy Smith, an educator, advocate and change maker in inclusive education. Originally from the US, Cindy has lived and worked across the globe, before settling in Perth where her work is making a real difference for children with diverse learning needs. Cindy, shall we start from the very beginning. What brought you to Australia and what made you feel this was the right place to stay?

Cindy Ann Smith: Ah, so I think I would have to say that it was my husband that is responsible for me coming to Australia. My husband is English. We lived in the United States for about 15 years, and we just, we visited his daughter who had immigrated to Australia, in Melbourne, uh, several years before that. We spent two weeks with, with her and Bob just absolutely fell in love with Australia, fell in love with the land, with the people, went back telling everyone that we were going to immigrate, and I'm like, we are, and we haven't talked about that. Um, but he, and he kept talking about it, just kept, kept talking about it. So I was, uh, working on a university in, um, outside of Atlanta, Georgia at that time in a special education program. I was doing a lot of research around autism, um, training teachers, uh, to work with children with autism. And I was asked to go to Saudi Arabia to, uh, to develop a program, uh, to train teachers to work with children with autism. And so I said, so we've been talking about going overseas, you know, and he said, but no, that's not Australia. So anyway, in the end, we went, uh, we were there for about two years, and when that project was finishing, and we were looking around what we were, we were going to do next, and, um, uh, he said, okay, so I came to Saudi Arabia. Could we please go to Australia now? So we came to Australia, and I was very lucky to get a position and, in Curtin, and we absolutely love Perth, we love Australia, we love the people, the climate, the lifestyle. It's a very good place, yeah, to live. So we are very lucky.

MJ: Such a lovely story. So when you first arrived, what was your impression? What was the impression of its people, culture and the education system?

CAS: Mm. Um, well, the, the culture was much, was much different. And one thing I will have to say about Australia is that everybody is so relaxed. You know, everything is just whatever happens, happens, you know? And, and it's, uh, they're very easygoing, the people, you know, are. It's also very, very diverse you know. You go, um, anywhere, you go on any street, uh, you hear different languages spoken. You see people from all over the world, you know, that are, uh, that are here. So that is very, very interesting. There's never a dull time, you know, when you're, uh, wherever you're at. Um, education system is again, kids are kids wherever you're at in the world. Um, but there are some differences. I think the, um, uh, Australian, uh, system follows more the British, uh, system, uh, which has quite a few differences, you know, than the US. Uh, we also have in, um, our, our schools. there's, uh, a lot of children who are from, English is not their first language. They have different cultures, different backgrounds, um, and that can be, that can be challenging.

MJ: Yeah. So were there any cultural differences that, um, surprised you or challenged your expectations?

CAS: There was, well, again, I think the, um, uh, the, the quality of being laid back, the casualness, you know, is, is different. I know when, um, uh, when I was in the United States, of course, as my students would address me, you know, by my title, you know, as Dr. Smith, when I was in Saudi Arabia, it was, um, in that culture, it's actually considered very impolite to use someone's family name, so they would call me Dr. Cindy. When I first, um, arrived here, I got an email from a student and said, Hey, Cindy, how are you? And so I asked one of my colleagues, I said, how should I expect my students to address me? And they said, he says your name. And I said, okay. And he said, oh, you are expecting them to use your title. No, they will not use your title, you know. So that was a, that was a big difference, yeah, that I had to get, had to get used to, yeah. But I think in, in many ways, it's, um, um, yeah, it has a, oh, how do I wanna say it? It's, um, uh, a closeness, you know, to, you don't have the, so much of the separation, and I don't think it, it can appear, especially if you're not used to it. It can appear, appear as a lack of respect. But I don't think that's, uh, that's what it is. I think the students still have the respect, but it's, um, it's a closeness, more of a closeness.

MJ: So was there any values or traditions that you brought from your home country helped you to stay grounded in this transition?

CAS: Mm. Well, I think wherever I'm at in the world, my faith is very important to me, um, and of course, I had just, you know, I experienced living in a country for two years where as a Christian, I was, I was not, I couldn't publicly, you know, practice my faith, um, or talk about my faith, you know, even, um, so to be able to do that and to have the freedom, you know, to be who I, you know, who I am in this, in this country, that was, um, that was very, very nice. And I have, um, uh, been able to find a really good community of other people who have similar, uh, faith journeys as, as myself. And that's, that's very, very important.

MJ: So, Cindy, how was the experience of migration, um, shaped your identity both personally and professionally?

CAS: Ah, uh, professionally, of course, I've had opportunities, you know, to work with, uh, researchers and educators from all over the world, and having different, uh, views and ideas and attitudes, and that's very, very important. And I think that's, uh, I've been able to, uh, be, uh, be a better researcher and educator because I've had, you know, those different experiences. Um, as far as personally, uh, I grew up in a very, uh, rural, uh, insular, um, area, uh, a very rural area and many of my family and friends had never traveled from the time they were born to the time they, uh, died, throughout their whole life, you know, more than maybe a hundred miles, you know, from, in that one spot, uh, which that can be a very safe and stable environment, but it also can be very limiting. Um, so the opportunity to, uh, to experience different cultures and to see different, uh, different parts of the world, um, I, that has definitely shaped, you know, who I am, and I think allows me to see that, um, you know, there's not just one way to live, you know, there's different people have different values, and that can be a good thing, we can all learn, you know, from each other.

There was, um, oh, I think it was about 20 years ago, there was a big push on having, um, valued value-led education, you know, and everybody, you know, lots of people got on the bandwagon for that. And of course, we wanted our children, you know, to know right from wrong and, you know, and to, uh, to have good values and be good members of their society. But, you know, the question you've got to ask is, if we're going to have value-led education, whose values is it? You know because every culture values different things. It doesn't make it right or wrong, you know, but it's, it's different. And you've got to choose, you know, somebody's got to choose and it's not going to be the same.

MJ: Yeah, that's so true. Were there any moments that you question yourself whether this move was the wrong decision?

CAS: Um, well, one day I was, yeah, I did. I was going, I, I wasn't going the wrong way, but I wasn't doing the right thing on a roundabout and I, 'cause I had never experienced roundabouts, you know, to drive on until I came to Australia. That was, yeah, I was kind of wondering what on earth did I think I could manage, you know, this far away place, um, but I, I did, I did figure out the roundabout, and I can do them, um, now. But, um, more seriously, I think the, during the time of COVID, you know, that was really hard. My mother was, um, got very ill and passed away during that time. And she was, you know, as her, uh, her cognitive facilities, you know, weren't as strong she, she couldn't understand why I couldn't come home, you know, to see her, and that was, that was really hard.

MJ: Cindy, what inspired your shift from working advertising and finance to special education and psychology?

CAS: Mm, I think that would have to be my children. Um, I was, uh, I have four children, and they were all identified fairly, uh, young as being gifted, uh, which, you know, sounds like a real blessing, and they, they are, they're wonderful, uh, human beings. They've done great things. Um, but it can also be very challenging, um, because unfortunately, our education system is not geared, any place in the world, is not geared towards children with differences, and children who think differently, um, it’s geared towards more, you know, of a mass, you know, education. So I found that I needed to, um, to advocate, you know, very strongly and very differently for all four of the children. They had different challenges and different strengths, um, and so I spent a lot of time in the schools advocating, you know. I got to know the, the teachers and the principals, and I got to know, uh, quite a bit about the way schools worked, um, and we have, you know, there's some wonderful things, you know, that schools do, but there's also some, uh, some big improvements, you know, that, that we could make. I feel like, um, when you think about it, we're only a couple of hundred years away from, uh, having education be what you can learn at your, uh, kitchen table, you know? And it depends. Unless you were someone who is very, very privileged, um, your learning was, took place in your home, and it depended on what your parents could teach you, you know? So the idea of where education, you know, is funded by our governments, and it's for everyone, and everyone has the expectation of being educated, uh, we're still learning, you know, how to do that. Uh, we're learning how to train teachers, you know, how to form our schools, and we have a long way to go, you know, to, um, to, to make that work for all of our kids. So I wanted to do something to make, uh, I wanted to be involved, you know, in that, in that process.

When I first decided to, uh, change careers, of course, I went back to school and one of the things that I did while I was in school, um, I worked in a head start center, an early childhood center, uh, that was...Head Start in the United States is, um, uh, a program that is for children who are from very low socioeconomic, you know, areas, um, so they'd had oftentimes hadn't had advantages, they hadn't, they didn't arrive with, um, uh, the background in literacy, you know, that other children, you know, do that have early childhood experiences. Um, and they also had, many of them had experienced abuse, um, or just environmental, you know, problems, which made them very, very angry. And they didn't have the social skills, they didn't have the ability to control their frustration, um, but I found that I really, somehow, I was just drawn to those children. And, um, and they would usually, you know, would, would work with me too if, some days were better than others, but usually they would. But I've really enjoyed working with that population of, of students and the, the kids that, that don't fit in, you know, we, that don't do what everyone expects them, you know, to do. And what I found was that, um, they often had some, uh, some brilliant, brilliant qualities that were overlooked, you know, because, uh, people focused on, uh, you know, the things that they had difficulties, you know, with. Um, I kept going to, I finished my teacher qualification. I went on, uh, to get my master's degree because I just felt like that I didn't know enough, you know, I needed more information. I needed to know more.

And I realized too, that it wasn't just me, you know, my colleagues, none of us knew enough, you know, about working, you know, with these kids. So when I went on to, um, uh, apply for my PhD, uh, one, and part of that process, I had an interview, and one of the questions I was asked was, um, why do you want a PhD? Why do you need one? You know, is it, it's a lot of work. Are you sure you need one?

Um, and I said, we've got too many children who are falling through the cracks in education. You know, if we had just one or two, we could deal with those on a case to case basis, and we could fix that. But we have so many, we have so many children that are not getting what they need out of school, and they're not able to contribute, you know, to their society, um, in ways that they should, you know, and we all lose, you know, because of that, the children and the rest of us lose. Um, and I wanted to be part of the system that changed that. I wanted to be involved in changing policies, um, and changing, uh, rules and attitudes, you know, uh, in the schools and of, um, our communities in general. And, um, so the professor was interviewing me, said, yeah, maybe you do need a PhD. Perhaps you should come along. Um, but I, yeah, so it's, it's been a, it's been a really, really fun journey, and I don't re...regret that change at all.

MJ: Yeah. Well done to you for taking these initiatives. So what were the challenges you faced in establishing a new career in a new country?

CAS: Ah, um, well, again, I've got to, um, you know, I bring my, you know, my, my, um, brash American ways, you know, to a, you know, to a different, you know, culture. Um, and I have to learn the, um, uh, just the vocabulary, you know, is one thing. There's so many, you know, things that are different, you know, in a different culture. Um, but just the vocabulary is different. And it's, I think in some ways it's not, you know, expected. You know, if I went to, um, a country that was, I, I recognized, you know, this, I'm not going to be teaching in English. I'm going to have to learn another language, and then you expect that, and you plan and you study for that, but it's like, oh, I speak English, you know, um, where I'm going in Australia, they speak English, in which we do both speak English, but we have very different dialects, very different vocabulary. Um, I think the first month that I was here, in every meeting I was in, I would stop and say, wait, what is that word? What is that acronym? What do you mean? You know, in education all over the world, we love acronyms and we have very different ones wherever we're at. That was a big challenge.

MJ: So how is your experience, um, as a migrant educator in Australia, compared with the educators that got trained in Australia?

CAS: Hmm. Um, well, I think I, I think I, I bring a lot of things, you know, as from the different experiences, you know, that I've had. Um, but I have had to, uh, my colleagues who have, who were, you know, went to school here, were educated here, and understand the, the systems, you know, and the schools better, they have advantages, you know, over me because they understand the way, uh, the, the attitudes and the way that the, uh, the schools work, and I've had to learn all of that, you know, as I was, as I was going. So I think I, I bring some things, you know, that, um, I've helped my colleagues learn, but I, I definitely have learned a lot from them too.

MJ: Cindy, how has your personal experience, including parenting, shaped how you work with children with diverse needs?

CAS: I didn't have the opportunity to have, um, really positive role models, you know, as parents, you know, for myself, uh, so I didn't get that experience as I was growing up so I had to learn a different way of parenting, you know, than I had been parented. Um, and as all parents do, you know, we, some days you do better than others, you make mistakes, you try again and try to do better the next day than what you did, um, you know, before. Um, and so everybody experiences that, you know, to some degree. But I think it led me to, um, I think that was part of why I chose to study psychology, you know, because I wanted to understand why people do things, um, and what, you know, what drives them and why children, you know, uh, do what they do, how they learn, uh, the different ways that children learn. And I think that was from seeing my four children, um, who in many ways, you know, were very privileged, um, but they had very, very different challenges, you know, and they were all different from each other, and, and I just found that fascinating. Um, it's given me, um, I'm not sure, empathy, a tolerance. Um, I'm, I'm willing to look deeper, I think, in rather than just surface behavior, you know? So if a child is having difficulty, I, we need to find out why, you know, they're doing that and what can we do, you know, as adults and educators, uh, to, to support them better.

MJ: Cindy, do you mind sharing with us, in your perspective, what are the most misunderstood aspect of autism and special education?

CAS: Uh, um, well, yeah. There's, there's several things. First of all, with autism, the idea that, um, all people with autism are the same, you know? And they, they really are not. Um, one of the, um, uh, one of the very old sayings in, um, uh, the autism education community is that if you have worked with one child with autism, you have worked with one child with autism. And that's, that's all. Um, and people, people think that they understand, you know, if someone has autism or sometimes, um, people with autism can be, uh, because they present very differently, uh, they can be, uh, yeah, misunderstood, and people will even question, you know, why they, if they're using, you know, the diagnosis of autism as an excuse. And that's, you know, nothing could be farther from the truth, um, 'cause even though people will present very differently, uh, it's a very real, um, condition, you know, it's something. And there's, um, uh, there's a lot of controversy around whether we should even consider, you know, to use disability and autism in the same conversations, you know, because, uh, people with, there's lots of people in the world who, um, you know, maybe 50 years ago, you know, were considered odd or quirky, um, but, you know, today they would have a diagnosis. But these are also the people that have, had given us so many, uh, contributions and things that we, we don't know. So many of the things that we have and we enjoy and makes our life better are here because of these odd, quirky people, you know, in the discoveries that we made, that they made. So we need to understand that, um, everyone, even if they, uh, they think differently or look at things differently, that's actually, um, that's really good, you know, for, uh, for our world. Um, one of the, um, um, Temple Grandin, who's one of the, um, most famous, uh, people with autism, she's a professor at Colorado State, um, and she was asked, uh, one time, it was right after the research had discovered, uh, the genetic, you know, component to autism. And so they asked her, uh, do you think that if, if we could eradicate the autism gene, do you think that should be done? And she says, Ha! she says, if you did that, she said, we would all be sitting around in caves doing touchy feely stuff, and nobody would get anything done, because it's the people with autism that make a difference in our world, and she's, I, I agree with her. She's absolutely right. Yeah. So that is a, uh, that is a big misconception.

Um, special education overall is very, very misunderstood, uh, in what we need to, how we need to teach, you know, students. Um, sometimes the idea that, that all, all children should be in a mainstream setting, um, I think is, is very, uh, I feel like it's a wrong concept, and I feel like that it comes from people who have a very good, uh, intent, but they don't understand the differences of the way, uh, people learn. And yes, obviously, uh, all children should have the, uh, the right to learn, you know, with their peers and to be included, you know, in their, in, um, in their community. But the worst kinds of segregation that I have seen is in a classroom, if you have a child, uh, who's learning differently for whatever reason, but they're at the back of the, uh, room, and they may have an aide who may or may not have the training that they need to help that child, but their, uh, primary concern is to make sure that that child doesn't disturb the rest of the classroom, um, and to me, that is the worst kind of segregation, that is not integration. So to have a, to have children who have peers, are able to interact and communicate together, whatever that looks like, um, that is really, really important, and we have to have special education settings to be able to, to make that happen.

MJ: In terms of special education, Cindy, how do we compare with the rest of the world as, as a nation?

CAS: Mm-hmm. Australia does a lot of good things, uh, but, uh, we have a ways to go, um, in, uh, and from, and I will speak from my context of, uh, in the US because that's where I was educated, and that's where, uh, I received my training and I taught in special education classrooms there, uh, so it was in the 1980s, 19, uh, early 1990s that most of the, uh, the laws that said that all children have right to be educated, uh, really came into being. And those laws were, they came into being because of advocacy by parents. Parents pushed and said, yes, my right, my child has a right to be educated, and you know, that, that is what's going to happen, and they pushed and pushed for that. And with the result, there was, there was legislation and policy, you know, changes, uh, uh, for that. Um, Australia has those laws, um, but they aren't always enacted, you know, and they aren't always interpreted in the best way for, uh, for children. And that's not, um, everyone means well, everyone wants all children, you know, do well, but they don't, uh, they just don't understand those concepts yet. We have a lot of education yet to be done, uh, to make the best education setting for all of our children.

MJ: So, Cindy, what do you think is the most rewarding part of the work you've done on the FACES Project?

CAS: Uh, it’s seeing the success of the children. I have so many parents who have said that this is the only place, you know, the only environment that their children have been successful. Uh, so it's, it's seeing the success of those children, but it's also seeing the success of the teachers, um, because we have our, our, um, um, model is to, is for our teachers to learn by doing, you know, to, uh, to first start with observing, you know, a trained teacher, and then slowly take over, you know, working with those, uh, children, and at the end of the day, we all, um, uh, we debrief and we say, what went well? What could we do better? What can we do better the next day? And that's the way that we all learn. And to see the growth, you know, from, um, with our educators and with our children, that's extremely rewarding.

MJ: So, Cindy, what would you like to share with, um, other first-generation migrants, or migrants in general, in this country?

CAS: Uh, um, it, it's a great place to be. Uh, you should, um, uh, don't be, don't be afraid to join in. Uh, don't be afraid to, um, uh, to embrace, uh, and get to know people that are different, you know, from you because it adds so much richness, you know, to your life. Um, and, um, have, um, don't be afraid to, uh, to share your strengths, you know, because, and don't be afraid to share the strengths that you bring from your culture, wherever that may be. And, um, yeah, so that everybody can, everybody can benefit.

MJ: Great. And in your view, what are the most important Australian value?

CAS: Um, um, I think the, I do like the, the value of, um, uh, yeah, that it'll all be okay, you know, she'll be right, at the end of the day. Um, so whatever happens, you know, it'll be okay. The, the laid backness and the idea that everybody gets to give it a go, I think that's very important. And that's, that's cool to see.

MJ: So positiveness and the fair go.

CAS: Yeah.

MJ: Wonderful.

CAS: Yeah.

MJ: Cindy, thank you for sharing your journey. Your story is a powerful reminder that migration is not just about moving countries, it's about growth, resilience, and impact. From shaping inclusive education to leading innovation, your work continues to inspire. We're grateful you choose Australia as your home and thank you for all you do to make it a better, more inclusive place.

This has been My Australian Story. Thank you for joining us.