That Time of the Month

You're listening to the Western Australian Museum Boola Bardip talks archive. The WA Museum Boola Bardip hosts a series of thought-provoking talks and conversations tackling big issues, questions and ideas, and is delighted to be able to share these with you through the talks archive. The talks archive is recorded on Whadjuk Nyoongar Boodjar. The Western Australian Museum acknowledges and respects the traditional owners of their ancestral lands, waters and skies.

MC: Good evening everybody and welcome to the WA Museum Boola Bardip and this Lunar Lounge event. Before we get started this evening I’d like to just take a moment to acknowledge the lands on which we are gathered here tonight, the lands of the Whadjuk People of the Nyoongar nation. May we pay respects to elders past and present.

So tonight, we have some very interesting topics of conversation and performances. So first up we have Dr Chantal Bourgault Du Coudray and Lucy Peach who over the next 30 minutes will be discussing the cultural significance of the moon and how that relates to women. Please make them feel welcome.

Lucy Peach: Good Evening. How’s everyone going? Has anyone seeing the moon today? Not that one, but the actual moon.

Audience Member: Yes

LP: Have you? How's she looking?

Audience Member: Halfway there.

LP: Halfway there, aren’t we just.

Chantal Bourgault Du Coudray: Halfway down? It's on the wane.

LP: It's on the wane.

CB: Yeah.

LP: I actually wrote a song in my first EP called Wax and Wane. And, yeah, I remember someone saying whose Wayne? [laughter] Yeah. Anyway. I feel like I'm on a talk show. I'm just going to run with it, if that's okay with you.

CB: That’s fine.

LP: Please enjoy our esteemed guest, Chantal. Did I say it right?

CB: Yeah.

LP: I overdid it, didn't I?

CB: No. Chantal.

LP: Chantal. So I just think we should jump right in.

CB: So hang on.

LP: Okay.

CB: We had a conversation a few days ago, and we realized that we really liked each other. And we thought it's probably best if we just have a very brief chat now and save it for the day. So we're having our first date.

LP: We are. How's it going for you so far?

CB: So good.

LP: Okay, great.

CB: You're really making me feel at ease.

LP: Oh good. I am good at that; that's one of my strengths. So, I think we should start on your back story, and you can start anywhere you like. But I know that you did a PhD on werewolves.

CB: I did.

LP: Okay. So I, I first of all, I want to know, like, is this a long standing fascination with werewolves? How did you get to the werewolves?

CB: Okay.

LP: Let’s all take a breath.

CB: I will say that I was telling Lucy about my slim qualifications to talk about the moon, so here we go...

LP: Don't undersell yourself thank you.

CB: So I used to have dreams about being chased by a wolf. A werewolf, from really young, and I think, I don't know, like Michael Jackson's Thriller had a part to play in it. But I know a cousin told me a really scary story about a werewolf in a lift. So it was kind of in my psyche. And then when I got to doing my PhD, I was like, I'm really tired of these dreams, and I'm going to get to the bottom of it. And I thought, I'm going to write my PhD about werewolves. And at the time I was interested in, you know, gender and I was doing a lot of feminist theory, and it seemed to me that werewolves had a lot to say about our relationship with both nature and culture, and about embodiment and hair and the moon.

LP: Mmm, keep going.

CB: In particular, at the time, it was the 1990s and there was kind of emerging interest, I suppose, in the social construction and the cultural construction of masculinity and werewolves just seemed like a really fun way to think about, particularly...Oh, here we go. So, masculine relationships with nature as being quite fraught. So, you know, in essence, in the 1990s at least. And I know that things have changed. In Werewolf land, if you were...

LP: So just just back up for a second. Where is werewolf land?

CB: So in werewolf land, as in movies about werewolves or stories about werewolves. If you were a boy werewolf, then you would get infected with being a werewolf. And then you would kill people and go into this terrible spiral until you died. Right. That was the kind of tragic scenario. Whereas if you were a girl werewolf, then you would organize a babysitter on the night of the full moon and make sure that you were out of the range of humans, or go to the forest and just organize yourself and actually quite enjoy being a werewolf and live. Right. So it was this kind of really weird dichotomy about, like in those days, that how men and women dealt with being a werewolf.

LP: Who decided that that was how it was going to roll.

CB: It was just something that evolves from, you know, the well, at least the 19th century when I when stories about werewolves became quite popular. And primarily from the 19th century, actually. So because, before that, you know, lycanthropy, which is the word for being a werewolf, was considered to be a medical condition, and it was a kind of madness that would overtake people at the full moon. It was linked to ingestion of certain kinds of herbs, and it's sort of sat alongside witchcraft as a thing that was unchristian and dangerous, or at the very least, indicative of being and mentally unhinged, and that needed treatment. And it wasn't necessarily as gendered in those days.

LP: Interesting.

CB: So the stories are fairly even about male and female werewolves. And then I was kind of observing the gendering of werewolves through the 19th, the 20th centuries.

LP: So you have these dreams, you hear the story, you've watched Thriller too many times, and then you pursue this line of questioning through a PhD. What did you, where did you land?

CB: Well, I landed with a Ph.D. and a book and an academic position as the chair of Gender Studies at UWA. So, because you know, you can do a PhD on werewolves kids and get a really good job right.

LP: I think that deserves a round of applause.

CB: So, one thing I always say to my prospective students is think very carefully about what you do your PhD on because you are going to have to tell people what it was about for the rest of your life. Right. So I didn't really think about that when I was 21, and here I am.

LP: All right. Well then let's move right along.

CB: Hang on. I didn't know this was an interview because I want to talk about you as well. You're amazing. No, sorry. Well, I found out today from one of my students who works in a bookshop and who is here, that you wrote a book and I didn't even know that. I’ve seen your songs, about having periods on YouTube, and I think they're awesome. And I show them to my students because they're really good discussion starters. But tell me about your book. Tell them about your book. What's it about?

LP: Has anyone been to my greatest period ever? Oh, thanks guys. So yeah, my background is as a sexual health educator and performer. And in 2016, I just decided that I would make a theater show about those two things and exploring the cyclical nature of myself, and that it would just be like a sex ed session, but with more songs and like a gig, but with more other stuff. And at the last minute my husband joined me creating animations of what I was talking about. And so, yeah, made this theatre show about the menstrual cycle. And then, the book came from that and I'm still sort of riding that crimson wave.

CB: How did you get interested in that stuff? In the menstrual cycle stuff?

LP: Well, I was working as a sexual health educator, and I was really fortunate to be, I guess paid to learn and to find things out about my body and the world that I just didn't know. And at 27, it was so, potent to kind of get this information and to really understand that I'm not accidental and that actually there are benefits to being the way that I am. And as a songwriter, getting to...

CB: When you say the way that I am, do you mean this embodiment?

LP: Yeah. Being in in this body and I guess, you know, we've got so many different ways to experience this world and this life. And our senses are the interface that we have. And for, for me and a lot of women and people with periods, I think the predominant experience is that there are lots of parts of us that we have to put in the back room or turn off or not talk about or shut down. And, it felt like a liberation.

CB: Yeah.

LP: And that actually being premenstrual wasn't like the week of death, but a time where I could be really creative.

CB: Yeah.

LP: And so, yeah, that's one of my gateways.

CB: Yeah. It's one of the things that I really like about your work, is that embrace of your embodiment and the embodiment that lots of other people share. And it's in keeping with, you know, feminist philosophy that I really love that, does something similar that really, kind of leans into exploring and thinking from embodiment, like from what, what is it like to be in this body and what kind of experiences does that enable or suggest? And it's true for all of us, right? I'm, you know, and I include, you know, men and trans people in that, but I think there's so much value in thinking and, and experiencing from the body, it teaches us in different ways. It teaches us to be in the world in different ways. And feminism is one of the pathways that's kind of led me to think about that.

LP: Yeah. I love that so much. Something that, we were talking about acupuncture in the toilet, but something that my acupuncturist says to me is your body is never wrong. Your body is never wrong. And it's having an appropriate response to whatever happened to you. To whatever happened to you when you were 6 or 26 or yesterday, and whatever you're feeling is not wrong. It's an appropriate response that just requires acknowledgment and understanding and compassion. And I think that, yeah, so much of being cyclical.

CB: Yeah.

LP: You know, in the same way that the moon is cyclical is seen as a detriment or it's seen as a, a deficit or something to be overcome or manage.

CB: Yeah. That's true. And you're making me think, and I'm talking, you know, against slim qualifications, but I'm... we know that the moon has a really huge impact on the flow of water. Right. And of course, our bodies are also significantly composed of water. So there's something for me about our relationship with the moon that is quite physical and embodied in the sense that, you know, you talked about when we were on the phone briefly going out and looking at the moon and how that shifted.

LP: So, just to, to draw a bow between menstrual education and the moon. People love asking, you know, what does it mean to bleed on the full moon or the new moon or what's the... And you know, again, as is the case with anything to do with women's bodies, there's f##k all research on things like that. But about, I think it was 2018, I, I just realized that I didn't pay much attention to the moon and I just started looking a little bit more and a little bit longer, and I wasn't going out there on a schedule and, you know, singing to it or doing anything like... I wasn't

CB: Not that you're admitting to.

LP: Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just like, I just want to stress like it was a very minor effort that I made and I would literally just look for it. And when I saw it, I'd let my gaze linger and I'd be like, oh, you look nice tonight. Nice to see you. Thanks for coming. Thanks for showing up again. And after about three months of doing that, I started bleeding with the new moon. Yeah. So when it was dark and it was so nice and for about three years, I was in sync with the moon, and it just felt like, you know, sometimes you think I'm the only one that feels like this. I'm the only one that's in the darkest night of my soul. And then you look up and you're like, oh, you two. Same. And I think it's just such a beautiful reminder that we're not created to be and feel the same every single day. And we've got this incredible reminder of what it means to be phasic or cyclical.

CB: Yes.

LP: Yeah. And then as I said, I did some IVF and it all went out the window and I fell out of favor with the moon, and now I ovulate with the full moon and, usually get a migraine. So it's going really well for me.

CB: Yeah. You need to see your acupuncturist.

LP: I do, I did, I did, yeah. I was just checking the time and...

CB: I’m glad you're checking the time, how are we doing?

LP: We’re ten to seven. So at any point we can stop and ask for questions.

CB: Oh yeah. How it's going for you guys? Does anyone want to ask a question already?

LP: Any questions?

CB: Okay. It's fine. So I was, so when Lucy was telling me about her practice of going out to look at the moon I confessed that really recently, really recently, I downloaded a calendar. That you can just plug into your, like, digital calendar that tells you this.

LP: it’s called an app.

CB: An app, thankyou. Really? You’re so mean to me.

LP: Sorry you just left that hanging.

CB: Like having dinner with my children. So. And I started paying attention and I felt really bad. So that's how I know that the moon is currently on the wane, because I've only just started really paying serious attention to the moon, even though I've sort of been thinking about it all my life in a theoretical sense. But I started to think about it in a more practical sense. And then we started talking the other day about menopause, and Lucy said that you've been to...well do you want to tell me the story about the menopausal women at your menstrual retreat or whatever it was?

LP: Yeah, so I did some I did some training in the UK, out in the Cotswolds, in this beautiful part of England. And with every session we would do a cycle check in. So we go aroundthe circle and we'd be like, I'm Lucy, I'm day seven, and I'm feeling really sparkly and emergent, or whatever. For the women and the people who had gone through menopause and weren't cyclical anymore, they would say, I'm Lunar Day 20 or whatever it was, and I'm feeling blah, blah, blah. And it was this sort of, really overt way of claiming there's still cyclical nature post being menstrual, as if like and I always saw it as this sort of level up, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I did that for 40 years and now I've yeah, I've transcended and you know, and I just, I loved that because it felt like, you know, and there's this beautiful Native American proverb and it says at a first bleed a woman means a power, and the bleeding years she's practicing you know, all of those changes. Being low in energy, high in energy, super connected, super needing to turn inward. You do that over and over and over and over and over and over again. And through that process, through that container, you meet all of the different parts of yourself and you learn how to be with those different energies. Sorry, I cut myself off. So at the first bleed she meets her power.

CB: Yeah.

LP: In the in the bleeding years she's practicing and then at menopause...Have you heard this?

CB: Well, no, but I'm waiting for you to say she stepped into her power or something like that.

LP: She becomes it.

CB: Right, yeah okay. So I'm really glad we get to talk about menopause now because...

LP: Yeah, so you don't need the blood anymore to remind you of where you are.

CB: Yeah.

LP: You don't, you don't need that red flag to be like, oh it's time to rest you're tired, because you've carried that imprint of 40 years of cycling, and now stop talking and let you tell me what it's actually like.

CB: Well, I'm just coming into it. So I'm not I'm not menopausal yet, but I'm close and it's... And so instinctively I almost was like, I want to get in sync with the moon. And when you were talking about, you know, the lack of knowledge around our periods and menstrual cycles, it's the same with menopause. And I really welcome there's a real conversation opening up. I think as my generation becomes menopausal, there's a whole lot more awareness emerging, which is amazing and great. So I kind of, you know, I'm riding that wave.

LP: There's never been a better time to go through menopause.

CB: I think that might be true.

LP: Yeah.

CB: And, for me...

LP: Unless it, unless in ten years time, it gets really hot. So then I think that could be quite, a quite a crap time to go through menopause. You really nailed it. This is probably the sweet spot.

CB: Right

LP: Most awareness, most resources, we haven't quite peaked yet global warming, etc..

CB: You’re so right, I didn't think of that.

LP: I think about it all the time.

CB: I have no response to that. Yeah. I don't know. So yes. So there's something about, again, claiming menopause. You know, I mean, it's not for everyone. And I know like I fully...

LP: Well it is, unless you die before.

CB: Well you know, what I mean is that it's hard and it hurts and there are symptoms that people hate and it's a bit like having a period, right.

LP: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CB: It’s not a picnic necessarily, or like having a baby like. There’s all these things about female embodiment that are hard work.

LP: Yeah I think that's a that's a really great point that you raise that like we're not sitting here suggesting that you've got to go out and embrace and know love every single thing about it because it's hard. Yeah, it's really hard, especially being in a world that's so focused on linear sort of outcomes and narratives. It's it is really hard .And so much of it is unsupported and under-researched and underfunded and all of these things. But I think if we don't have any other narrative available or we don't know what it looks like or could look like, yes, then we just we're missing out.

CB: Yes. And this touches in a bit too, so you talked before about periods and the practice of having them and getting in touch with all the different parts of yourself, and that often includes shadow parts, the parts that hurt, the parts that are in pain, the parts you don't want to think about, that you want to hide away from the world. So there's shadow work. We call it that.

LP: That is like the epitome of being premenstrual, isn't it? It's like you ovulate, you're at the full moon of yourself, you’re just absolutely like f##king amazing. Woo woo woo. Then it's like your ego just gets culled.

CB: Yeah.

LP: And you get, like, crushed every month.

CB: And [ laughing]

LP: Is it just me?

CB: Well

LP: Anyone else? this is.

CB: No, I think I mean [...]

LP: Who do you think you are?

CB: But menopause is like that, but on a like much more epic, drawn out scale. It's your shadow work. And this comes to my other life which is, so I also practice as a psychotherapist, which we were talking about. And there's something about the moon that really, symbolically and cross-culturally invites shadow work. It invites us to lean into those dark parts of ourselves that we don't necessarily, maybe always want to look at, but that are really important if we want to thrive, to kind of get to know and make friends with, actually. And that's, you know, that's psychotherapeutic work for anyone who's done therapies like kind of making friends with the parts of yourself that you're in a way and less [...]

LP: Your inner werewolf.

CB: Yeah, totally. I'm like, oh, that's why I did the thing on werewolves when I was 21, because I was becoming a psychotherapist, but I didn't know. So yeah.

LP: Just hacking your way there.

CB: Yeah. Because of course, now I realized that the werewolf was me in my dreams. But I didn't realize that.

LP: Oh, spoiler. The werewolf is you. Well, yeah. And okay, so many things that you said there, but I feel like the idea that being premenstrual is practice for perimenopause, for menopause, really resonates with me. And this idea that, yeah, you've been like, jollying along for your whole entire life and then you get to this point where it's like, no, no, actually the rug, see, I'm just going to take it away. And whoever you thought you were, now you're a werewolf, and I'll see you in ten years and you can become your pal. But first, you need to go through the dark decade of your soul.

CB: A bit. God, stop!

LP: But there's so much alchemy and so much power. And I think, like, you know, it's like, I don't know, this whole idea of everything needing to be rosy, or needing to be happy all the time or needing to find the silver lining. And just really, I guess accepting that some of life is really is really difficult. And yes, we live in, you know, one of the most privileged places in the world and, you know, we we've got lots of resources and things, but still we're all undergoing this metamorphosis, you know, which prepares us for the next half of our life until we jolly along to the next place, whatever that is.

CB: And something you just said brought me back to a feminist philosophy again, because I was thinking [...]

LP: I’m so glad.

CB: Really?

LP: You know, I really am, I feel like I'm getting a just a sliver of a feminist gender studies degree by proxy. It’s the degree I wish I'd done instead of biomed.

CB: Oh really?

LP: Yes.

CB: So fun. It's good. I forgot what I was going to say.

LP: I'm so sorry.

CB: I was thinking, okay, about, you know, again, coming back to female embodiment, which is different for everybody, right? And I really want to stress that. There is no right way to be embodied female and what we're talking about is a patterning that lots of female bodied people experience, which is this kind of cyclic. In a sense, you know, death and rebirth cycle that's happening all the time.

LP: Every month.

CB: It happens every month. It also happens, you know, if we do choose to procreate, then pregnancy is a longer version of that. And, and then moving from your fertile, you know, menstruating self to your post-menopausal self is another kind of cycle. So something about female embodiment really shines a light on that cyclic logic that we are always in transformation, that we're always in process, in a, in a cyclic way, And it really cuts against the grain of that very linear progress oriented way of thinking that is business as usual, really, in the current world that we live in, which some people refer to as a patriarchy. But you know, so I think the moon helps us to maybe shine a light on and think about those alternative logics that also govern our lives on this planet. Does that make sense?

LP: I think that deserves a long pause.

CB: Oh yeah. Can I tell you a fun thing then?

LP: Please.

CB: So when we were chatting on the phone we talked about how the moon discussion could get a bit woo, woo quite quickly. And you tell me the story about what they were worried about. Or you said you don't think it should be about the tarot or something. There was some [...]

LP: So when they said, do you want to do this gig under a moon? I was like, yeah, amazing. And there'll be a talk who's a scientist? I was like, cool, what kind of scientist? And they were like space. Oh my God, Puja, I love you. Oh. She's got me in the heart. And, all the scientists, no offense if you're one of them, they sounded just, I mean, not very in keeping with my brand of science. And then she said, well I could, we could just throw the science out and we could do a tarot night. And I was, oh, no, absolutely not! Menstrual education is science. And I was like, can't you just find some academic who can talk about the moon and the cultural significance on women? And she's like, oh, maybe. And I was just sort of saying words, hoping this mythical woman existed. And then she was like, oh, I found her. It's like, oh, fantastic. And then we were talking, and then we landed on tarot and again, like, I just feel like I reckon I spent about 15 years going, oh, sorry, it's a bit woo, and I want to take that back. And I just feel like, really honestly, like a lot of the things that we say are a bit woo are things that girls like, and that's kind of a way that we're like,oh, sorry, it's a bit dumb, I’ll just like, ohhh.

CB: I'm going to intervene there and say there are really long lineages of female wisdom and mysticism, that also sometimes are being expressed in stuff that girls like. [LP commenting at the same time as CB]

LP: Yes.

CB: So that I want to take seriously some of those [...]

LP: Exactly, exactly.

CB: Cultural traditions. But go on.

LP: Well that's where I was hoping to arrive to but you did so succinctly, so thank you. And I think, you know, like, whether you subscribe to tarot or astrology or whatever it is, these are all metaphors and symbols and icons. And if they give you access to yourself, to your werewolf, to whatever it is that's useful, that's useful and I think historically those things have been kept from us and weaponized. And it's great that so many people are seeking these ways of understanding themselves, of exploring themselves.

CB: So witchcraft is enjoying a real renaissance. I don’t know if you're aware, but I've got students who are starting to think about writing theses on it. But one of the things I said to Lucy was, oh well actually, even though I'm a respected WA academic and a psychotherapist, I do actually have tarot cards and I use them quite frequently. So let me explain.

LP: Now she's going to pull them out.

CB: No, I'm going to tell you a story.

LP: Okay.

CB: So, I don't use them to predict the future because I don't think that's what they're useful for. But I do find, you know, probably because of my psychotherapeutic orientation, that to choose a card or pick a card and to pay attention to what it might be inviting you to look at is really, really useful for self-awareness. For me to deepen my understanding of my own work. So I do use the tarot deck, and my practice is often to pull one card in the morning and just like, okay, that's interesting. I'll reflect on that today.

LP: Do you ever just feel like, no that’s dumb I'm taking another one.

CB: Well, no, more and more, I just trust they're always right.

LP: Yeah.

CB: Guess what card I pulled this morning?

LP: Oh wait.

CB: The moon. Oh I was like, you gotta to be kidding me. Like if you ever needed [...]

LP: That deserves a round of applause.

CB: It's just like, I actually burst out laughing when I did that. I was like, oh, that's hilarious, I have to tell Lucy.

LP: I love that. So that's great.

CB: So funny. Yeah.

And the moon, like in the tarot deck for those who care, it's a card that really signifies usually being incredibly uncertain, not knowing anything, not being able to see, you know, often beyond your hand. So having no clarity and sometimes that's really unsettling. You know, most of us actually and, you know again thinking as a psychotherapist, most people come to therapy because they can't handle the uncertainty and they want answers, and they want to feel more grounded and sure of what's going to happen. And so part of the work that I do in that space is helping and supporting people to get more comfortable with uncertainty you know, because ultimately there's mostly unknowns in this world. So the moon is this beautiful invitation, if you're into that kind of thing, to really make friends with not knowing, and being uncertain. And I love that. And I was like, great, because I have no idea what we're going to talk about, and I'm cool, it'll happen. And here we are.

LP: That is so beautiful and it's so true. You know, like we think we know what's going to happen tomorrow, and we’ve probably got a pretty good idea, but actually it's all controlled is an illusion and we're just kind of doing our best. And to be with that discomfort and make a little bed for it is, yeah, it's really nice.

CB: To be with it, I like that phrase, it's nice. To be with uncertainty, to be with the moon, which is what we're all here to do.

LP: So I mean, if I could’ve just given one bit of feedback, it would have been to make the moon so that it actually responded to the actual moon and maybe they turned the light down a bit, you know, so that it reflected what day it actually was. Don't you reckon that would have been good?

CB: Yeah, so true.

LP: Just for next year maybe you could figure out that.

CB: I think she's gone. The, the woman that does the moon. Yeah.

LP: We'll send some feedback in. I feel like that's probably a really good place to leave it for us. And maybe, are there any questions? Is there anything? Yes. Okay, we’ve got two questions. How fantastic.

Audience Question 1: I've just got a question for you. Just wondering what are your favorite books, and some of the books that changed your life or the way that you thought?

LP: Well, that's a good question. For me, for both of us? Both of us. You go first.

CB: No, you get this. I'm really racking my brain.

LP: Further to your fascination with werewolves, but sort of not really, Women Who Run With the Wolves. If you haven't read that book, it's just so fascinating. It is a Bible of metaphor and poetry and just incredibly rich. And sometimes I just turn to a random page and I'll read a page and I'll be like, okay, I need to go sit on that for a month. Like, I, I don't like being too greedy when I'm reading it, and I actually haven't finished it. And I've been reading it for about ten years, and I just I love that book so much. Yeah, a book that I've recently started reading is, The Great Cosmic Mother, and it's about the history of goddess religion before patriarchy came in and changed everything. And that is fascinating. Yeah

CB: Yeah, yeah. And part of that resurgence that I talked about of which, well you know, leaning into those traditions of what we might call witchcraft or female lineage or mysticism or whatever you want to call it. I was going to say, well, it's not one of my favorite books, but it's pertinent. So Women Who Run With the Wolves, because it's psychotherapeutic, it's about the werewolf thing. It joins a lot of dots as what we've been talking about. But the other one that comes to mind at this moment is, Angela Carter's A Company of Wolves, which is her book of short stories and a lot of the short stories in there are rewriting of European fairy tales featuring wolves, for example, a little Red Riding Hood. And it's really female centric, and rich in terms of symbolism around things like the blood and the moon and all of those things. And when my daughters turn, like when they got their periods, that's the book that I, well that's the book yeah, that's the book that I gave my oldest daughter and my younger one I gave Women Who Run with the Wolves. But when they did, because the joke in my family was that I was a werewolf and that when they got their period they would become a wolf and we could go running together. And then my younger daughter was actually really, really disappointed and a bit angry when that didn't happen. I told her it did happen, that she just doesn't remember it.

LP: But I mean, it's not too late. Maybe you could arrange a family camping trip and get some fur and...

CB: We could. We should. They'd love that.

LP: Yeah, I’d come.

CB: They'd like you.

LP: There was another question.

Audience Question 2: Mine’s a bit off left field. Is there a link between werewolves and rabies?

CB: Yes, yes there is. So, there's a few different links. Rabies is one of them. So the medical, yeah you know, I mean you all know what rabies is, it’s when you get bitten by a dog and go mad. But it's actually more connected, far out, with a condition. I think it's called lupus. And it was connected with some kind of dietary deficiency, I can't remember the details that caused people to go a bit crazy. And do things like eat dirt and that was like, where some of the digging in graveyards mythology comes from. So there's speculation that there's a few maybe possible medical conditions that led to ideas about lycanthropy or werewolfism, and rabies is one of them. Yes. Audience Question 3: You've both spoken about the kind of cyclical time and linear time, and I wondered if you had any advice for people who are trying to honor the cyclical nature of ourselves, but who are living in a world that is very linear with deadlines? And how do you, how do you navigate that? Do you have any advice?

CB: I'm going to let you go first on that, because I think that you talk about this quite a bit. I'm just like her, I'm trying to deal with it. This is my student, by the way, who's read your book.

LP: Thank you for the question. Gee, it's an ongoing exercise in existing, isn't it? It's really hard, I just want to honor that, like, it's it's not easy. And, you know, I think I feel like a lot of what I do is telling people to just, you know, have naps and baths, and it's like yeah, great, I don't have a bath and I can't nap I’m a bus driver. What do I do? And I think, like, you know, something that red school talk about is the 1% shift and how, you know, sometimes you learn about these things and, you know, I mean, for instance, I spoke to a woman not that long ago, and she'd come to a talk or, come to a talk, and she had three daughters, and she went home and she said, I was so excited to tell my husband. I was so excited to say, I've learned all this stuff about my body and our daughters and la,la,la. And I got home and I was like, oh my God, I've got to tell you stuff that I've learned about my period. And she said, but then he said, Nah, I’m ok. I think I know all I need to know. And she was so upset because she loves him and he loves her, but for whatever reason, he wasn't yet able to be part of that conversation. And it was so heartbreaking to her because, you know, and I do lots of work with this guy called Mike Dyson and I loved when I was speaking about this with him and he said, really if you go to your partner and you say, I'm really interested in lightning or ukuleles or crochet, because that's something that you love it would be cool if your partner said, oh, cool, why do you love that? Tell me more about how you love that. Oh wow, that's really interesting. And what do you think? Like some curiosity and just how, and I don't want to demonize this guy because I'm sure he's a great dad and a really great guy, and I think for a lot of men in particular, they just haven't been privy to a conversation that has been anything other than talking down to our nature. And it's so ever present. It's so woven into so many things that we can't even see it a lot of the time. It's the air that we breathe. And so any 1% shift that you do to claim your body, to take up space or time or whatever it is it might be like, I don't know, I'm going to walk to my car really slowly or I'm going to put my hand on my heart, or I'm going to take a hot water bottle to work, or I'm going to change my email signature and say, I'm day two today I might get back to you a bit longer. Or whatever it is like, you know, we we're making all this up, right? We're all making it up. And this, all the rules about it has to be done this way and this time, and all the time is like, well does it? And sometimes it does. Like if you're a brain surgeon, you can't be like, I'm just going to try something different tonight. You know, you got to do your job, but or and maybe, you know, the way you set yourself up is different. So you don't talk to that person that's really draining or you don't talk at all, or you take yourself out for a cake, or you smell a flower not once, but three times or whatever it is. All these tiny little things.

CB: And I want to add to that because, you know, the psychotherapy work that I do is significantly about bringing people back to their bodies, into their bodies. And a lot of the, well I mostly see the worried well, right. Who are often, you know, they have, you know, quite intense jobs, so with those people it's about supporting them to just listen more regularly and attentively to what their bodies are telling them. And in the micro ways that this is describing that's really supportive and enables lots of people, in my experience, to get through the day and meet the deadlines without burning themselves out, because in those micro ways, they're still breathing, attending, looking after themselves in a sense. Their bodies, and attending to those keys and they know that, you know, when they've done that brain surgery, then it's time you know, for my body. So it comes back to some of the things we've been talking about, that the moon is connected to our bodies. It has a pull on our bodies and actually starting to pay attention to that. And this is part of the wisdom of, you know, not just feminist scholarship, but a lot of, you know, female centered traditions is grounded in the body. Like, pay attention we’re not just disembodied minds. You know...

LP: I'm so glad you said that, because that's the other thing that that I think is so important is, like, even just every day asking yourself, you know, before you get out of bed and spring into action and put the face on and do all the things you have to do in the world. Like just, just be with yourself, you know, just for five breaths or two minutes and really be like, where am I today? What day am I? What do I need and how can I bring that to the world in a way that feels, appropriate, you know. And I think, like yeah, if you’re day 2 and you're in pain and you're sore and you're tired, you're not going to have the same fire as you might on day 12. And again, because of the sort of addiction to the linear narratives, it's so easy to be like, oh, yeah, I'm coming to this day with F##k all. I'm coming to this day with a deficit and sorry everyone in advance. And this rewiring that we all have to do collectively, of like, well, yeah, maybe you're not as rambunctious, but maybe you're more observant and perceptive and gentle and intuitive. And those are really important qualities. You know, if we don't make space for that, we're all bereft.

CB: And I want to say something about men here too, because men have bodies, too, right. And also have these cycles. It's, we've been talking about women's bodies a lot. Female bodies and female bodies make some of these things more visible in some ways. But it's not that male bodied people don't have the same kinds of experiences. I think one of the nice things about this discourse in this conversation is that it's an invitation for everybody to think from the body, right, and to start paying more attention to that. And that feels like it's really important at this moment in time, which has been governed for hundreds of years, for thousands of years, by quite heady discourses that are very much about, you know, transcending the body, controlling nature, you know, and that's comes back to the werewolf thing. Like this nature thing's taking over my body. Oh my God, what am I going to do? I'm going to die, like, you know, yeah. So. I don't know if that makes sense.

LP: It makes total sense, I think so. I want to include men. What did you say, think from the body.

CB: Think from the body and feel from the body and operate from the body. You know, it doesn't rule out head stuff, but...

LP: Can you just give us, like, for anyone listening who's like, okay, think from the body. What does that mean? What does that look like? How do I do that tomorrow?

CB: So well if you. So. Okay. If you have a client I might say, well first of all, close your eyes. Right. And it's like a check in like you for probably done a meditation at some point in your life. So it's like, where, what am I noticing in my body? Like, oh, actually, you know, I feel kind of tense in my chest or my neck’s hurting, or there's always something. Right? So it's literally just starting to pay attention to that. What's that trying to tell me? Oh, I probably didn't sleep right or I need to... So you can start to have a conversation with your body just by noticing what's going on. And I think the more you do that, the deeper your connection with yourself becomes. I know that because I, I see that unfold with people. So check, it sounds a bit basic, but body check ins, body scans, really good place to start. And you can do that by yourself. And you don't need a therapist.

LP: And that's your homework. Okay, everybody go and do a body scan.

CB: And do it every morning. Make it a ritual. Yeah. It'll be the next thing.

LP: Any other questions? Last, last questions.

CB: They want to hear you sing.

LP: Okay, well, have a drink and, go to the toilet if you need to. And in 12 minutes, I'll be joined by Tara and we'll play some songs, that some of which will feature the moon.

CB: This has been so fun, I love this.

LP: It's so much more fun than doing it by myself.

CB: So good. Thank you.

LP: Yeah, I thank you so much.

CB: So lovely to meet you. It was a really good first date.

LP: I know, will we do it again?

CB: I think, I think so, I'll go for a second date.

LP: Okay. Please give it up for Chantal.

CB: And for Lucy. Thanks so much.

LP: [Performs first song with Tara John]

Thank you. This song’s called Girl the World. The extended version of the title is Girl the World is spinning and You’re on it. Which I like to remind myself of now and again. Wait, wait, I just wanted to tell you, remember you are doing a solo in this song.

Tara John: Yes

LP: Was it this song? Yes.

TJ: I think I do., I can.

LP: Yes, it was. The bridge before the third verse. Yes, now you know how the sausages are made.

[Second song]

LP: Thank you. This song’s called Silver Tongue and it’s the first song I ever wrote that I guess was a made up story, and I realised that words are spells and you can say what you want and, um, you can reimagine a future for yourself. A different story, and I remember when I first wrote it and then I had to learn it because you write it and you have to learn it. I remember sitting in bed next to my little boy and I was trying to play it and I was like, “Oh, this is crap”. And he was about 4 years old and he said, “Don’t say that to yourself. Play the song”. And I keep that little memory tucked in whenever I need it. So now I’ll play the song.

[Third song]

LP: Thank you. Oh, this is a sad one. Ahh, it’s called Golden Days and, um, I haven’t played it for a while, but I started playing it this week and I really liked it. So I’ll play it. I wrote it on the 23rd of July 2011, and I know that because I remember waking up the next morning and Amy Winehouse had died, and I finished writing it with her in mind. It’s also about getting divorced.

TJ: A woman.

LP: Any questions? Are you having a good life? Good. Are the bean bags squishy?

[Fourth song]

LP: Thank you. Ok, if that was a divorce song this is another break up song in keeping with the theme. I saw a really great meme the other day, sorry to refer to memes, and it said, ‘If they didn’t want people to get divorced then why did they make divorcee sound so cool’. This is a really old guitar, a friend of mine got it for me from some alley in Nashville. I think it was made around like the early 50’s. So one day it’s just going to turn into a splinter on me, but until that day...[strums guitar]. Okay, this is Bomb.

TJ: I can’t read the set list, I’m so blind.

LP: That’s a long way away, it would be unfair. I’ve got you.

TJ: I’m glad.

LP: Give it up for Tara John. [applause] What a treat.

TJ: Thank you.

[Fifth song]

LP: Actually, I need to stand up for this song. I can’t have this celebratory break up song sitting down. It doesn’t feel right.

TJ: You stand, I’m going to keep sitting.

LP: You keep sitting and ah...

TJ: These swivel chairs are great. Thanks Jesse for letting us use them.

LP: Yes, it was really, really nice and now I’m ready to stand.

TJ: I feel like a naughty kid who’s always being told off for swinging in the swivel chair.

LP: You swing as much as you like.

TJ: Yes, I’m not going to stop.

LP: Okay, let’s go.

[Back to Fifth song]

Thank you. Okay, this is a song...can I get my vocals in the fall a bit more? I know I said I didn’t want it but I want it. I changed my mind. This is a song called lamb that I wrote a long time ago and it was ahh... I was opening a newspaper and I was eating and egg and I was reading about Afghanistan and just, just doing the... that little dance you do in your head about how we just got to be lucky to be born here and live in this body, in this time and this place and not be somewhere more. Somewhere, somewhere, somewhere, a bit more...[strumming guitar] there it is, there it is. Somewhere where you didn’t feel safe, yeah and, um, I imagine... My mum has six children and I often wonder like, what is it like to worry about six children. Like I have two children, but to have six and want to get them all in your arms if you needed to, like just what that must feel like. Um yeah, like I know I'm not the only one who’s scrolling Instagram and seeing like cat videos and you know seeing stories of children having amputations without anesthetic and just how crazy that is. And, um, yeah, it feels like there’s nothing we can do sometimes and all we can do is just witness this terrible thing, but I think that, um, just by being present to it and calling it out and speaking of it, sometimes, sometimes it’s important. This song is called Lamb.

[Sixth song]

Thank you. Why don’t we do your one.

TJ: Yeah, let’s do that.

LP: This is a song written by...

TJ: Our friend Addison. Axe.

LP: Yes. Tell us more.

TJ: Well Axe does everything. She’s and illustrator, she’s a personal trainer, she’s a singer songwriter, a play wright a guitarist, and I already said singer songwriter but she’s a singer, band wrangler. She had two bands running at the same time, called The Tommie Hawks and Axe Girl, and this song is a Tommie Hawk song called Fighting the Times. Which seems more Axe than ever now, and I love how it seems like more of a mantra the more it repeats. Um, that line we are the women and we’ll keep on singing, and...

LP: Do you want to tell them how to sing it?

TJ: Yeah, if you want to you can join in in the chorus. Um, it just goes, what key are we in... ‘we are the women and we’ll keep on singing, we are the women and we’ll keep on singing’, you can do either of those. ‘and we’ll keep on singing, we are the women and we’ll keep on singing, [repaets several times] Anyway.

LP: Um, I didn't hear anyone singing. It’s really good for you, it’s good for your nervous system. You sang? Thank you to the man over there.

TJ: Oh Reuben.

LP: If you feel weird about singing, that’s ok, just have a crack. It will make you live longer.

TJ: It will.

LP: Will we do it one more time with feeling. With some gumption.

TJ: So, um, alright let’s do this in two parts. Let’s just start doing the ‘we are the women and we’ll keep on singing’ and then you’ve got to keep going. It’s a little bit of a test, and I’ll sing something else and then hopefully we’ll finish at the same time.

LP: Oh yes welcome, and there’s seats at the front so you can get blasted by us if that’s what you’d like.

TJ: Yeah. Daisy leap, like a gazelle, so graceful. Alright, so you can either sing, ‘we are the women and we’ll keep on singing, we are the women and we’ll keep on singing’

LP: Let’s just do that, yeah.

TJ: Ok ready.

LP: Are you ready?

Audience: Yeah.

LP: Are you ready? You don’t even know what’s going to happen tomorrow. This could be the last night of our lives, under the moon.

TJ: The moon might explode and turn into burrati.

LP: And we’ll keep singing.

TJ: Why did I say Burrati, I mean burrata.

LP: You can say what you like. Moon, cheese, I like where you’re going with that. Ok.

TJ: ok. So can you all do that. ‘We are the women and we’ll keep on singing’. Oh and if you identify as a man...

LP: Or non binary.

TJ: Or non binary.

LP: You’re still invited...

TJ: Sing

LP: to be of this song. And thank you.

TJ: Yes, you must. Ok ready.

[Seventh song partial]

Very good, you’ve got it. Alright sweet. So, ehhhh, you know what you can just break into that whenever you want. You could sing it all the way through if you wanted. Or not. Or just sing whenever you felt like it. Or just sing on the inside, but it would be great if we could hear you all. You know what, this is a really lame song to sit down and sing to.

LP: You want to stand up too.

TJ: Yeah, I think I’m going to stand.

LP: Come on Tara.

TJ: I would, ok it’s no secret that I loathe reggae but I was about to say Get up, Stand up. This is Jesse. Thank you Jesse. Jesse is phenomenal. Without Jesse I would have lettuce leaves for hands. Maybe not but that’s how it feels. So this is a lot of faffing isn’t it. I spoke too soon. Oh it will be fine, what could possibly go wrong. Thank you Jesse, to the rescue again. Alright do you remember your words, do you remember your lines? It’s ok if you don’t. Oh very good Daisy. Yes, ‘we are the women and we’ll keep on singing’, great. Alright, we’re going to start with that and you can just keep going if you feel like it. And if you don’t...

LP: You’ll get detention.

TJ: yeah, start sleeping with one eye open.

LP: Are there any other teachers here? Just one...two, three, school holidays. Woohoo!

TJ: It is such a dream. Ok. Alright, you ready? One, two, here we go.

[Seventh song]

Ohhh, thank you.

LP: Give it up for Tara.

TJ: I don’t think anyone’s ever sung that line all the way through like you did. It was beautiful.

LP: It was some circular breathing, I didn’t have time to swallow my own saliva.

TJ: Triangular breathing, it was bouncing off the walls. And thank you for joining in everybody.

LP: I can’t believe its 8:29, and I feel like...

TJ: Oh whoops.

LP: And we’ve, I mean...

TJ: Oh sorry.

LP: No, don’t, what are you apologising for.

TJ: Faffing.

LP: No, I love, it’s all good, faffing is a part of life. Only just to say, I’m sure you’ve got dinner plans and things like that and we’ll do one more song. Even though we had like a seven million more in the set. We’ll do one more song.

TJ: Yep.

LP: And this song’s called You’re Blood is Amazing.

TJ: I would have been sad if you’d said anything else.

LP: Yeah.

TJ: I would have said no.

LP: This goes out to anyone who’s currently menstruating and managed to leave the house. I really appreciate you, your services to humankind. I’m Lucy Peach and this is Tara John, thank you so much for joining us under the moon. I hope you’ve had a good time and I hope you have a great life.

[Eighth song]

Thank you so much, thank you, thank you. Have a really wonderful evening, thanks for coming.