In Conversation with NASA’s Sandra E Connelly

[Recording] You're listening to the Western Australian Museum Boola Bardip talks archive. The WA Museum Boola Bardip hosts a series of thought-provoking talks and conversations tackling big issues, questions and ideas. The talks archive is recorded on Whadjuk Nyoongar Boodjar. The Western Australian Museum acknowledges and respects the traditional owners of their ancestral lands, waters and skies. 

Alec Coles: Good afternoon and welcome everybody. My name is Alec Coles. I'm the CEO of the WA Museum and it's a real pleasure to see you all here this afternoon. Full house, fantastic. [Welcome given in Wadjuk Nyoongar language]. I acknowledge the Whadjuk people, elders past and present, as the custodians of this land. And I pay my respects to elders, past and present. [Nyoongar spoken]. I am happy and my heart is happy because we've got a fantastic show for you tonight.  

I do want to make a special acknowledgment to the, the US Consul General here in Perth Siriana Nair, because she has, has a lot that we need to be thankful for this exhibition. Syria it was who called in a few favors, I think, to bring the moon rock from Apollo 17, which is over there in the corner. If you haven't seen it, make sure you see it before we go. And is also largely responsible for us by being able to organize this talk this afternoon and particularly bringing Sandra, Sandra E Connelly here from NASA, Deputy Associate Administrator for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. 

Sandra is going to be in conversation with Phil Bland. And that conversation will maybe take 45 minutes or so, a bit longer, and then there'll be time for some questions from the audience. We'll have roving mic’s and then there'll be a bit of time, if you've not seen the exhibition shame on you, but there will be time to see the exhibition To the Moon after that.  

I should do a promo, for the exhibition, which has been phenomenally successful. It's breaking all the visitor projections that we, we made for it. There's a lot of additional activity going on, so please check the museum's website. It's on until October the 7^th, so you’ve got a bit more time to come and see it. And for those who want a wild night here, every Friday we have the Lunar Lounge in here, so check that out as well.  

Phil will introduce Sandra shortly, but I want to introduce Phil because Phil is one of us. Phil is the Director of Space Science at the Space Science and Technology Center at Curtin University. A graduate of the University of Manchester. And in 1994, he completed his PhD with the Open University in the UK and spent a year in Perth working at the Western Australian Museum. So we've known him for a very long time. He is a bit of an asteroid nut, as I'm sure you will find out shortly. And I think this is so cool, in 2006 the asteroid 1981 EW21 was renamed 6580 Phil Bland. Fancy having an asteroid named after you hey. It's actually an easier one to remember than 1981 EW21 as well. That was in recognition of his contributions to planetary science. We're very, very lucky to have him here in WA. From 2006 to 2012, he was Director of the Impacts and Astro Materials Research Center at Imperial College in London. And then in 2012, moved to Perth with his family, where he joined Curtin University as the Professor of Planetary Science. And in 2018, he became the Director of the Space Science and Technology Center. He loves meteorites and has devoted much of his career to hunting asteroids down in the Australian desert and is the driving force between the Desert Fireball Network, which is something else you can find out about when you visit the museum upstairs in the Origins Gallery here, which is a network of automated observatories, spread across the Australian outback.  And very appropriately, in 2019, he won the Scientist of the Year Award at the Western Australian Premier's Science Awards. So to really run this conversation today, and to introduce Sandra, it's my great pleasure to welcome Phil Bland. 

Phil Bland: Thanks so much Alec. I'm just going to carry sitting if that's all right. It's a great pleasure to be here tonight. It's lovely to have Sandra Connelly here, thank you so much for coming, and it's lovely to see all of you here. I'm always blown away by the enthusiasm for science and research that I've found in Perth since I've arrived here. It's just, it's lovely. So, as I say, it's great to have Sandra here with us tonight. Sandra is an inspirational leader at NASA. She's been serving there for around 30 years now. She is Deputy Associate Administrator at NASA's Science Mission Directorate, where she provides executive leadership over and management of NASA's $7 billion portfolio, that NASA spends on a whole range of science missions every year. I think there's about 100 missions. Wow. Which is incredible at any one time. So I get goosebumps just thinking about that. So, Sandra started out at Langley Research Center in 92 where she served in a variety of roles including systems engineer and business manager. and she comes from an engineering background originally. She was, she has a Bachelor's in physics and electrical engineering as a Master's. So I'm really interested as part of this conversation, I’m a planetary scientist, and one of the great fun things about space and spacecraft and missions is the very close collaboration between scientists and engineers in all of those. And, and it's always a pleasure for me to, to talk to engineers and, even though you've moved on a little bit since then, and how we think in slightly different ways, but how we can do amazing things together. So, again, welcome Sandra. 

Sandra Connelly: So thank you so much. It's an honor to be here, to spend the evening with all of you. It's my first time in Perth, it’s my first time in Australia, and I am finding it to be an incredible country and I'm really thrilled about the long-term partnership going all the way back to Deep Space Network, supporting spacecraft communications and science for a long time. So, I totally agree with you that the partnership between science and engineers is really what enables us to accomplish these amazing missions and answer the questions that we're trying to answer through the science.  

PB: Thank you. I think one of the things that, that it's sometimes kind of, and this is more for the audience, I suppose that, that we kind of take it, I'm not sure I'd say we take it for granted, but we don't really focus on it enough. But when, you know, we're all used to, and I say we, you know, people like, as members of the public, I'm just count myself as, you know, member of the public kind of an enthusiast, seeing, seeing NASA accomplish something amazing, whether it's sort of landing a spacecraft on the surface of Mars or, launching something to Jupiter or we, we get kind of used to being inspired by that and cheering it on, and we don't really think that, you know, NASA is a US federal agency, and NASA's remit is to do that. And we're on the other side of the world cheering the success of a U.S. federal agency. I don't think it happens in the US that people cheer on, you know, the success of I'm not sure, Department of Industry and, and innovation in Australia. I'm not sure if it's reciprocated. But it's worth pausing to think kind of how unusual it is that one nation, and all over the world, people are like that. You know, we'll stay up at 3 a.m. to watch like Curiosity Rover land on Mars. Um, just how odd that is, and wonderful, I mean in the best possible way. Okay. So go ahead.  

SC: Can I just comment on that? So I will say I have the best job in the world because of the amazing things that you're describing here. It's, it's truly a blessing to be able to work on so many amazing missions with so many amazing people. And it truly is a partnership, not just within NASA as a team, but we have international partners, we have academic partners, we have industry partners, all of which are required to make these missions happen. And science truly is global and there are no boundaries. So yeah, thank you for that.  

PB: No worries. I think, I mean, for me as a scientist, you know, it can be, I think occasionally folks can think kind of science is sort of reductive. So that, that, you know, individual scientists get fascinated with kind of one question, if you really love it, then, then you know that it's not actually like that. You can kind of, you might have to tackle one little piece of the puzzle, but you see the whole thing. And I think, you know, for me, NASA and your director, it kind of embodies that. It's in the end, all about the big questions. And, you know, it's part of the puzzle. But, you know, you're answering, the biggest questions.  

SC: Right, I totally agree with that, and you have to take on those questions, as you said, one bite at a time. And that's one of the things too, so our missions are very interrelated in nature. And so where you take one bite of the apple and then the next mission you're looking at it from a different perspective, using different instrumentation or gathering additional data and interweaving it all together to answer those questions. 

 PB: Now I'm a planetary scientist and that's, you know, obviously a very, very important thing that Science Mission Directorate does, but I'm aware that you do other things apart from the specific thing that I'm fascinated by. So maybe if you just tell us a little bit about all the other stuff that SMD does.  

SC: Yeah, I'd be thrilled to. So, yeah, planetary science is one of, indeed one of our mission focus areas and you've named a few of the accomplishments that we've made. Planetary science really has a number of amazing missions, but we also, we study all aspects of our solar system and into studying the universe, right. So first, starting with our own home and planet Earth, we strive to make sure that we understand Earth as an integrated system. Space provides a great environment to do that because you can look at it as an interconnected system, whether it's the oceans, the land, the ice masses, the atmosphere, how energy flows throughout all of those systems, and also within the solar system and, interconnecting with the sun. So we study Helio physics, which is to study the sun and how the energetic particles and all influence throughout the solar system, including here on Earth, but throughout the solar system. We obviously study planetary science. So all, and it's not just the planets right, but it's it's the all the bodies within our solar system, including asteroids and comets, as examples. And let's see astrophysics. So we have the mighty Hubble Telescope, the mighty James Webb Telescope, helping us answer the mysteries of the universe. And, and what's amazing about James Webb, in addition to like answering those, those long term questions looking way back into time, how did you know, how did galaxies form and how do we come to exist? And, and so in addition to that, it's also helping us identify exoplanets around other stars so that we can begin the search for life, which is something else we're trying to do. We have a biological and physical sciences organization, which is very interconnected with our work on Artemus. Our Moon to Mars program is basically looking at how do we sustain and protect life off of our planet and support, you know, future presence, our permanent presence on the moon and on to Mars. So we have to understand the biology impacts. We have to understand how to grow plants and, and how to identify resources so that we can sustain that life and also understand the physics right. Things are different when you don't have gravity. So, like one of the big findings is flames don't burn the same way in in space as they do on Earth. And we need to understand how things are different so that we can be prepared for that permanent, long term presence.  

PB: I think, I mean, one of the things that... Right, yeah, flames burning differently. It's kind of, you know, the number of things that you have to take into account, in, in space flight is just remarkable. And when, you know, when I think about Apollo and what kind of happened, what they managed to do in such a ridiculously short space of time, going from pretty much zero to on the moon in nine years. It kind of gives me goosebumps that they managed to do so much in so much detail. But that's, I mean, that's part of, am I right in thinking that a big part of that is systems engineering? That, that was... I'm pitching you a.... 

SC: softball question. [laughter] 

PB: Okay, sorry.  

SC: No it's good.  

PB: So it's, okay, so you tell us what, what that is, and and is that alright?  

SC: Of course, yeah no. System engineering is critical to the success of any of these missions. And again, it's it's being able to look, holistically, beginning to end the whole mission. Well, everything from, you know, your concept of operations, working backwards, thinking through all aspects of the mission, making sure you're engineering it to answer those science questions and yeah, that's a critical skill set. I think it's one that is one of our challenges actually, although we have, we often have classes in university on systems engineering. You can teach the basic concepts, but it really, I also think takes having those hands on experiences. Those building, whether it's building a CubeSat, cradle to grave, operating it, decommissioning it, getting that experience of how the whole integrated path for development works. 

PB: Yes, I think, I mean, one of the things I think that is most special and and I think in the end, you know, kind of it justifies the, in the end, the funding for, for, for spaceflight. Or what is, what does a nation get out of this sort of activity is that, you know, you're throwing together your best scientists and engineers and giving them a ridiculously challenging goal, and the universe is really setting the obstacles there. It's kind of saying, well, you know, to learn something on Mars, gravity looks like this. And you only have this sort of atmosphere, so you can't decelerate properly. And, and all these people, these brilliant people scratch their heads for several years in the lab and then build something remarkable. And usually the thing that they build can then be used throughout that economy to do loads and loads of other things. It's, sorry, I'm going to pitch for just one second. Is that basically, so NASA sometimes has the idea that at NASA does generate spin off technologies, as many of you know. But really if you think about it, the guts of spacecraft isa shopping list for everything that it advanced economy needs. So, so pushing the frontiers there, you actually get kind of, you know, everything that advanced economy needs in terms of other innovations. It's just a personal hobbyhorse.  

SC: Can I just elaborate on that? I, it's an incredibly exciting time for the space industry right now. It's really exploding. And so we've gone beyond space being just something that governments can achieve. To the point where we have, you know, an industry that's really strong and powerful, where you know that there's many different rockets that we can choose from. There's many different spacecraft builders and so it's transforming, I think, the role of government in space as well. So we need to still continue to be pushing the boundaries, pushing the technology so that we can achieve that next exciting thing. But we now have industry, and partnerships at a level where they can do things that we used to only be able to do, and I think that's just going to really open up our opportunities. 

PB: Which is really fascinating. Yeah, and, and I mean, I think one of the things that's really exciting is that you still need big missions. You still need missions that have, you know, that are like a couple of tons that are because, you know, if you're going to get to Jupiter and look at Europa you're only going to do that once a generation. And so, so you've got to take everything you want on that spacecraft. But what is really interesting right now is that there's a whole other category of mission which are, kind of much smaller, much more responsive. You can take as small payloads on other spacecraft and as, as a university researcher, I'm super excited about that because it kind of gives us an entry into exploration that, yeah, that we wouldn't have had before. So... 

SC: So I think that also is changing the way we look at how we construct and design our missions. So the, the CubeSats are a great advancement. Small SATs are a great advancement because it's a way to achieve certain kinds of science for a more affordable price tag. Where yet there's still those really big lofty things that require the large platform. And so having that breadth of different mission opportunities is, is, I think, enabling for us in ways that we weren't able to achieve in the past.  

PB: Yeah. Yes. Okay. So, slight tangent. I think, can you tell us a little bit, okay, what does a day in the life for Sandra Connolly look like? So, so you get in the morning, what is an average day like?  

SC: Wow. They're never the same. Honest, honestly it’s back to back meetings and that's the boring part. But what is amazing about my job again is being able to work with all these amazing scientists and engineers to answer the mysteries of life, the mysteries of the universe. And it is super exciting for me to be able to work on these missions. I, just probably one of your favorites because you're a planetary guy, is like the  O-REx mission.  

PB: Yeah. 

SC: Right, so this, this is the mission to the asteroid Bennu, where we wanted to go and collect samples and bring them back. We thought it was a carbon rich asteroid. Asteroids are like the that, you know, they go back the 4.4. 5 billion years when the solar system was being formed. And unlike Earth, where we have the atmosphere and all, which is changing all the time, asteroids generally are not changed. So it really is like a baby picture of the creation of our solar system. And so we wanted to go and bring back the samples. We thought they were carbon rich. So again, searching for for life elsewhere. This might, it might have contained the building blocks, which we've since found that it did. But what's amazing about it, in addition to that science, we're always finding new things. There's always new challenges or things that you're not expecting. So when we went there, we thought it was going to be, you know, relatively a sandy asteroid, pretty easy to go and grab a sample, bring it back. We got there. It didn't look anything like what we expected. Really rocky, to the point where we did additional, like, mapping of the asteroid to make sure we really understood it. A lot of time was taken to find a space where we actually could do the tag and grab the sample, and it was the size basically of two parking spaces. So a really small space between rocks and boulders and stuff like that to go grab that sample. Again, not planned, we thought it was going to be smooth, relatively smooth. And then, you know, even when we did the tag, closing the sample container, we had so much material, you know, it was like coming out of the sample container. So we closed it. We ended up with way more sample than we expected. We returned it to Earth. Yeah, we had to, in that process, we had to change from manually operated tag to making sure it was automated. So we actually changed the software, uploaded it so that it could do the tag automatically. I mean just, it's things like that that are super exciting, challenging, and then recognizing that, you know, humankind, we can overcome these challenges to do great things. 

PB: I’m actually on the O-REx science team. So, so I was, I was lucky enough to actually see it launch, which was the only spacecraft I've ever seen launch, which was fantastic. And, and I took my kids there with Gretchen, my wife, and they were not nearly as impressed as they should have been. Which is, I was really very disappointed in my children in that moment. But, but it's been an absolute pleasure being on that mission, and, and, and I was, we dialed in. I can't remember what time of the morning it was when, when it was so, tag was touch and go for the spacecraft, and, and engineers built this incredible system where, where they pump nitrogen through this nozzle down on to the surface so that then they can actually make, you know, suck it back up because it's a vacuum in space. You can't use a vacuum cleaner in space. So you got to pump down your own little atmosphere to grab the sample, which was amazing. And, and as Sandra's says, there was, we discovered the whole surface of this asteroid was really rocky. And so then the, I think, I guess engineering and operations team, they all came together to work out an entirely new way, this is on the fly while the spacecraft is at the asteroid, of being sure that that actually it can touch and grab a sample without damaging the rest of the spacecraft. And it was ridiculously tense. So it was, you know, we were watching, all our friends were in masks, it was during Covid, and, and over the feed you could see like 50cm, 30cm, which meant it was within 20cm of the planned spot. Which you think, okay, this is happening tens of millions of kilometers away. And the spacecraft that humans have made is orbiting a body to within 20 centimeter precision, which just like, yeah, is incredible. Okay another, sorry, another one is that, so with O-REx it's actually amazing, and this I should point out is another element of NASA's partnership, with, you know, many other nations is that we, we are getting, Australia is getting, and actually already has, fragments of the asteroids supplied by NASA as part of that mission. And those are going all over the world. And so teams all over the world are collaborating with American science teams in analyzing that material. And that isn't paid for, NASA does that because they want to see amazing science happen. So it's wonderful to be part of that. 

SC: Yeah. In fact, open science is really critical. I mean, that's that's, a core value of NASA's. Sharing the data with scientists around the world is critical, and we're actually trying to lead the way to to encourage our international partners to share the same value system, because we can achieve and answer more questions if we're all working collectively and collaboratively together. 

 PB: Yeah. Thank you. So, we talked a little bit about Apollo. One of the reasons I became a scientist was, was, the ,seeing the Apollo missions and, and, and towards the end of that program. And the, actually one of the first real memories I've got in spaceflight was the Voyager launches. And, and if folks have ever seen pictures of that, they were kind of really unusual rockets, and they had these giant fairings on top that encapsulated, you know, these huge spacecraft. And I was so excited about it. And as, as a boy, I just read, from that point, everything I could get my hands on about space flight. And there was no real, I didn't expect to get a job in it, but, but I wanted to find out everything I could. I just wanted to ask you, was there a mission that, that that that had the same significance for you? 

SC: Absolutely. And so I attribute my passion for space to my father. He worked for Goddard Space Flight Center, which is in Rockville, Maryland. So it's not far from Washington DC in the United States. And, so we were actually moving on the day that Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon. And I'll go ahead and tell you my age, I’m not ashamed. I was four years old at the time and so this is a very clear memory for me. We were moving, and my father made sure that the TV was like the last thing on the truck, so that as soon as we got to the new house, the first thing that came off that truck was that TV. And we all gathered around it together with the movers. And I was joking earlier, I saw the exhibit here in the Museum of the, the 1960s living room. The thing that's missing from that exhibit is the rabbit ears on top of the TV. I don't, some of you remember those as well. But yeah, so that was very inspirational for me. I remember it very well. And the fact that my father worked at Goddard continuing after that. He used to bring home swag. So swag was like the stickers, the posters, you know, I found those very inspirational. And I will tell you in my keepsake box at home as an older adult now, I still have, I still have two things from the Viking landing. I have a picture, a color picture of Mars. It was like the first time we saw, like, the red planet in color. And then I have the 3D, not 3D, but the panoramic view from the Viking lander as well. So I have those things. And then I also have a sticker from the Apollo-Soyuz mission. Which was the first time, so we were in the Cold War at the time right, and we had a space race going on. And it was a great example of collaboration between the nations and how space is unifying across nations. And is even to today.  

PB: Yes. That's awesome. That's lovely. Thank you. The, and I'm sorry, did you ask me a question at the end of that? I'm slightly deaf. 

SC: I don't, no.  

PB: Okay, that's awesome. I got, I did get a little bit of swag a couple of months ago. So I was, I met, I was in Canberra and Lori Leshan was out there with a couple of her colleagues and, and one of them was, oversees the Directorate that includes NASA's Deep Space Network. But as kind of a side job, is project manager for the Voyager interstellar mission. Because it's called the interstellar mission now because Voyager, both spacecraft, have left the solar system. And I was talking to her about, you know, that was the formative moment for me, and she had a little badge that was the 45th anniversary badge and she gave me the badge.  

SC: Oh, good.  

PB: So that was, that from, and I was given that from the Project Manager and so that was, okay, that kind of blew me away. 

SC: I know that's really touching. Voyager, we're really proud of our Voyager spacecraft. I mean, again, they are in interstellar space. So, and they're over 40 years old, as you just mentioned. So again, amazing engineering accomplishments and the science is still coming from those missions. So thank you. 

PB: There is a thing that, that a lot of people don't realize that, when, you know, when you fly a mission, there's, there's an engineering model which stays on the ground. And, and when people hear, when people don't know too much about spaceflight, when they hear model, I think a lot of them think that it's just, you know, papier maché is involved in that. And, and, and it's... No. And so, that is a fully functional spacecraft that is just not being flown and the team uses that to basically test everything that they need test. As kind of a, you know, okay, if we prod this one like this, how might the one in space respond? And when I, I was lucky enough to visit a Jet Propulsion Laboratory just over a year ago, and there's a room there where there is the Voyager engineering model in that, in that room. And it's not a particularly special room. It's not. And I was I get goosebumps just thinking about that, because that kind of... I've heard people visit JPL and come back and say, oh, I saw the Voyager model. And, no you didn't, you saw the engineering model.  

SC: That's right.  

PB: Yes.  

SC: Full blown model, right. So when things, anomalies occur on the spacecraft, we can use the engineering model also to try to troubleshoot it. And in fact, I mean you raised to mine, to the importance of testing. So we do try to test as you fly because we're flying in some environments that we're not capable of replicating here on Earth. We can't necessarily test everything as you fly, but we do absolutely everything we can to try to wring out the risk and understand what it is and make sure that we're knowledgeable about what risks we're accepting. So from the testing environment, so for some of you who may or may not know. So for example, we go through a whole series of environmental tests and they range from vibration testing, acoustic testing, like can you handle the launch loads, is it going to break apart when it's going through launch. The thermal environmental testing so that, you know, when you're flying a James Webb Space Telescope and it's got to be super, super cold on one side and room temperature on the other, you know, is it going to still work. Or when you're flying Parker Solar Probe, which is one of our heliophysics missions, that mission is literally right now flying in the corona of the sun.  

PB: Wow. 

SC: And that corona of the sun is 300 times hotter than the surface of the sun. So that's part of what we're trying to understand is why, why does that occur? But Parker Solar Probe, it's going to be at its closest approach, the Perihelion, in December of this year.  

PB: Wow. That's crazy.  

SC: Yeah.  

PB: I didn’t know that. That's amazing. That's even more impressive than some planetary science, actually. That's fantastic. So, okay, so... What is your favorite mission and why? And I'm not going to hold you to anything that you have been managing since you started your current role.  

SC: So, I've talked about, I don't have a favorite mission. You know, I am, I am honored to be able to be in a role where I have had many, many different opportunities within the Science Mission Directorate. The fact that we have the breadth of missions that we have is, again, is a blessing to me to be able to work on all these. Since I've already mentioned a couple of them, I don't have a single favorite. It's like picking your, you know, your favorite child. I don't have a single favorite, but certainly there's been incredibly memorable missions for me, even in just the past few years. You talked about OSIRIS-REx, James Webb Space Telescope, the Parker Solar Probe mission. There's, we're working on the biological and physical science activities supporting Artemus. So they're all very, very interesting. On the Earth science side we just launched our PACE Mission, which is looking at ocean color to help us understand phytoplankton and that, basically how the oceans are evolving. And looking at harmful algal blooms, looking how at the, the chemistry with the atmosphere and tying in with the weather. So all of that, we have many, many exciting and interesting missions.  

PB: I don't want to, you know, drill down and get you to pick. You're right, it's like choosing a favorite child. So, the ahh, can you tell us, and I, we don't need to get into the weeds, but some of the ways that SMG, Science Mission Directorate... So for the sake of the audience, NASA's Artemis program is, is a huge part of what NASA's doing now. if you see just around the corner, that's the Space Launch System, which, which NASA's built to take astronauts back to the moon. The first woman and first person of color is going to be going to be flying on that rocket in a few years time. I’m lucky enough to have been given the Lego set of that, as the anniversary present by my dear lady wife, which was fantastic. So it's actually a really great Lego set. But, but it's, it's really, I think the exciting thing for me about Artemus is that it's a strategy for, for going back to the moon. But then, then being based on the moon, it's not a race anymore. We’re going there to, to do science and to explore, and then using that as a stepping stone for Mars. Now, the the way that NASA is set up is there are many, there are several different directorates, that are responsible for different elements of NASA's overall mission. A lot of that is human spaceflight. Can you tell us just a little bit about how Science Mission Directorate is interacting with, with us?  

SC: Yeah, I'd love to. And I want to start by saying, so again, I have an amazing job, we have many missions. I have had the opportunity to see a number of launches, including the Artemis launch, and it was totally spectacular. So if you've never been to a launch, I would encourage you to try to go to one. They're never boring. They never, ever, ever get boring and please take the time. You will, you will see it first, right? Light travels faster. Then you'll hear it and then you'll feel it. And it's a tremendous experience. And that Artemis launch literally turned the night sky to day. 

PB: Wow. 

 SC:  It was it was so powerful. It was amazing. So that was a great, that's, okay, that's one of one of my highlights of my career. I have I have a number of them, but that was one of the highlights of my career. But yes, our partnership across NASA, and achieving the Artemis mission, I think I'll just be honest with you all. In years past, maybe a decade or so ago, even within NASA, I don't think we were working as collaboratively as we are now. Truly, all of our different directorates are working as an integrated team to achieve Artemis. And science is the primary objective of Artemus and so, yeah, I think I think we're doing great things together. Looking forward to Artemus, to every single Artemus mission will be achieving some science as well as advancing exploration and preparing for that long term human presence on, on Mars. I mean on the moon and then on to Mars. 

PB: It's, yeah.  

SC: Well we need to go back to the moon first.  

PB: It's really exciting. And I think, so, you know, to give folks a bit more background there on the... There's a program that NASA started called Commercial Lunar Payload Service Program, which is CLIPS. And, and this is basically bringing in private sector to take payloads, some NASA payloads and some from, from other companies, in universities and, and countries and, and take them to the moon and, you know, drop them off in orbit or take them to the surface. And it's tremendous. It's like, you know, you can, they've really, NASA has really made an effort to kind of break out this entire program so that all of these different partners are contributing, which is tremendously exciting. I saw a, a, an estimate the other day that I think there are 70 spacecraft slated right now to go to the moon in the next decade. Which is just bonkers. So, so if you experienced, if you remember, Apollo, if anyone remembers Apollo, this is going to be that but, like, dialed up to 11. I think it's so exciting for me. 

SC:  That that ties into what I was saying earlier about how the whole industry is evolving. And I will say NASA has been very intentional about trying to create like, a catalyst for the industry. And the goal really is, so that industry can do the, the normal activities in space. I say that in air quotes right, because nothing's normal in space at all. But it's so exciting to see all the companies really stepping up to the plate. It started first on our human spaceflight side with commercial cargo and commercial crew. And then our commercial Lunar Payload Services is our next step, from a science perspective, of how can we get industry really excited about delivering a service to us? So basically, our industry partners, what we do is we contract with them to give us the data back. So we asked them to take our instruments or our payloads to the moon. Other people, there can be other customers that are on the same launches and they send the data back to us. So they, they're responsible for the launch, they're responsible for the landing, and they're responsible for the data delivery. And so a really exciting model, and we've already had a couple of launches. We've had the one successful landing, and we've had one that we're, we're learning a lot from. And we're looking forward to two more this year.  

PB: Right. Well that's amazing. So, I think that kind of brings me, I guess, towards the... Is, in terms of what you see as opportunities and challenges over the next ten year, where do you think we're going to be in ten years time? And, and okay, I guess that's the that's the question. Where do you think we're going to be in ten years time?  

SC: So yeah, things are happening so fast, it's hard to say exactly where we are. I really do hope that we will have that permanent presence at least established on the moon. And I say that, I mean, so permanent again is in air quotes right. But beginning to really create the infrastructure so that we can have sustained, enduring presence on the moon and achieving the science that goes along with that. And, and beyond even the Artemis program, there's so many other missions that we're currently working towards. Including, where, so, just next month or October, so two months from now, we're sending a mission to the moon of Jupiter. It's an icy moon called Europa. And what's really cool about this moon is we believe it has an ocean underneath. And again our search for life. And it's a very unusual planetary body, and we're looking forward to learning what we can from that mission.  

PB: That's, and I think, I mean, one of the things for me, right, you know, at this moment in history, you mentioned about James Webb and the ability to see exoplanets, is that, you know, we've been, like, humans have been wondering are we alone in the universe since, well, we could appreciate what the universe was. And right now, our, you know, James Webb actually has the ability, to almost, to see, the atmospheres of planets about the size of the Earth. So it is just feasible now that, there can be, you know, the headline on any given day that we’ve observed the biosphere around another star, which is bonkers.  

SC: I totally agree, and I'd like to take that opportunity to share two things. So first, going back to Voyager and talking about deep space, James Webb is one of them. Again, very appreciative of the long-term partnership with Australia for the Deep Space Network out of Canberra. But the, one of the reasons why I'm here with our team, and it really is to support the search for life. And so we spent some time in Nilpena just the past few days. Nilpena, in addition to some amazing geological activities, including, or evidence I guess is what I should say. Including, I mean one of the things that I thought was really profound was, there's a place called the Golden Spike where it's kind of a cliff site surface. And literally you can see a line where the rock matter is darker below this line and its lighter above the line, and it demarks the end of the Ice Age. 

PB: Oh, that’s cool.  

SC: It’s like flabbergasting. One of the reasons why we're there though too is to understand... So this, this location is where early animal life formed right. So multi celled organisms. And so we were there looking at the fossils and looking at how did we know that fossils were there. How did, what, what kinds of signatures or what would you be looking for if you were looking for life on a different, different body. And so that's one of the reasons why we're here studying that is so that when we go to Mars and other places, we at least have some idea of what we should look for beyond maybe just conceptually. Right. So how, understanding how our life evolved here on Earth helps us understand what we should be looking for as we explore those other bodies? 

 PB: Awesome. Thank you. I mean that's a pretty good place to open it up for questions.  

SC: Sounds great.  

PB: Thanks so much, Sandra.  

SC: Thank you.  

PB: Round of applause. [Applause] Thank you. Questions from the audience. So I think this one first. 

Audience Question 1: So I'm wondering how much involvement NASA has in Hollywood because a lot of films come out about space exploration, Interstellar, The Martian, etc., etc. Does NASA contribute to those films at all?  

SC: So NASA is often asked to consult. I will tell you that often those films are not 100% accurate. [laughter] [inaudible comment] 

PB: Yes. Yeah, I mean, the, there was, so as a, you know, planetary science person, a couple of movies came out around the same time, Deep Impact and Armageddon. And, and the Armageddon folks got access to a lot of NASA astronaut training facilities. It's a great movie, but virtually nothing in it is accurate, and that's part of the fun of it. Another question. Ok this one here, and then over there next. 

Audience Question 2: Well, first of all, Sandra welcome to Western Australia.  

SC: Thank you.  

Audience Question 2: My question is, I've been looking into Artemis Freeze project and I noticed that the Artemis rocket will not incorporate a lunar module into the rocket. Why is that, why is it not possible to incorporate a lunar module into the, the Artemis rocket? Because I understand its going to be using some sort of a new space station around lunar orbit.  

SC: So the Gateway.  

Audience Question 2: The Gateway.  

SC: Yes. So, I mean, Gateway is really important also. So, it creates, again, a permanent presence which can be a staging area for getting to the moon, and taking cargo to and from the moon, astronauts to and from the moon. So the Gateway is, is, is an important part of the overall lunar architecture. And from a science perspective, we are flying instruments on the Gateway to really help us understand the radiation environment, which is super important to the protection of our astronauts. I don't know if there's anything you want to add to that.  

Audience Question 2: Yeah, no, yeah. Thank you.  

Audience Question 3: Also, just a side question. This bit of a long shot question. Are there any plans for the, when the astronauts do land on the moon on Artemis III, are they planning do a tribute to Michael Jackson's Moonwalker? To do a moonwalk on the surface of the moon? [laughter] 

SC: I'm sorry, the question was, are we planning to do a moonwalk?  

PB: I think a dance. Yeah. It's kind of in the same vent as sort of Alan Shepard and the, and the golf.  

SC: Yeah. So, so I would say starting with Artemis III, we actually are planning. So, so that's when our, our astronauts will be returning to the surface of the moon. And we are planning to use from a scientific perspective, both handheld science instruments as well as deployed instruments. And from that point on we're going to be gathering that data and advancing our science knowledge. 

PB: Which will be awesome. Thank you. I think was it this lady here? 

SC: You mentioned about NASA setting up a base on the moon. What is to stop other space agencies from other countries setting it up? And what gives you the rights as opposed to any other country? 

 SC: Oh, that's a wonderful question. And the thing is, again, space is a unifier. And we can achieve more by doing more together than separately. And so I think, you know, we, we look forward and encourage these partnerships. And you know, so Australia is one of our first signers. In fact, they were part, part of the drafters for the Artemis supports. So kind of creating the, the framework by which we're going to operate as international partners when we return to the moon. So I guess my point is, I don't think it's a competition in that light, it's a partnership. And the more we do together and as we, if we can design how to implement our building blocks on the moon in ways that are complementary to each other so that we actually can do that leapfrog as opposed to the incremental steps. If that makes sense. 

PB: And I think it's shaping up a little bit like the Antarctic situation, with Antarctica, and how you know, at the Antarctic was kind of, there is other involvement, but the bulk of it is nations kind of sharing and the focus is scientific. So it's kind of the, the Artemis Accords, which is kind of the legislative framework around that, a little bit like the Antarctic Treaty. Yeah.  

Audience Question 4: What was the discovery that really changed the way you looked at space or our world? And why?  

SC: What is the discovery that really changed.... I think there's many, many discoveries. I mean, we've been going to space for what, over half a century. I mean, you know, it starts, let's go back to Voyager. Right. The very, very first spacecraft that we sent into space, and it's traversed through our entire solar system, and is now into interstellar space. I don't know that I can pick just one, but I mean, certainly that's one of the one of the beginnings, right? I don't know what, how would you answer that question?  

PB: It's a really good question, and I'm really pleased that Sandra, you had to deal with that first. So, I think, um the, so I think...Okay, here's a nice one. So there was a lot of debate for pretty much the entire, the bulk, most of the 20th century about how the moon formed. And, and I think even at one time, Einstein said that that was the biggest question in science. And it was quite late on, and it, it was because of the samples that Apollo brought back. So geologists were able to analyze the chemistry of those samples, and they were really surprised to find that in some really interesting ways they were just like Earth rocks. And in a whole bunch of other ways, they were completely different. And, and came to the conclusion that a, a giant, a planet maybe about the size of Mars hit the early Earth and then spun off a chunk of that, and that became the moon. I think, I think for me, that was probably, you know, when I found out about that, it kind of blew me away. Yeah.  

SC: You know, so just to add to that, I totally agree with you. Certainly, you know, the Apollo program and particularly Apollo 11, I think did grasp, you know, our world communities' interest right. Everybody, I mean around the world, people were watching their televisions cheering on the accomplishments of the U.S, but again, it was a global endeavor. Similarly, I mean, I think about landing the first rovers on Mars. I mean, it's those kinds of first, one of a kind activities where we really are pushing the boundaries of human knowledge, humankind, humans abilities in ways that we never had before that spur us on to try to achieve the next level.  

PB: That's the, that point you make about it being kind of an all human endeavor, it reminds me there was, I saw an interview with Michael Collins. So, Michael Collins was sort of the third astronaut who didn't go down to the surface, he was the command module pilot. After they all got back, the three astronauts did a kind of a world tour, and none of these people, you know, had any preparation for being, you know, the most kind of biggest celebrities in the world. They were, you know, test pilots. Their job is to fly like hurtling pieces of machinery. A thing that he said in the interview was that wherever they went, people referred to it as, this is an incredible thing that we've done. And they saw it as, you know, all over the world it was like people shared in that accomplishment. As you know, our species has done an amazing thing. And I think that's part of the sort of very special, quite unique, inspirational quality of spaceflight and human spaceflight. That is, it's like, you know, a human collaboration.  

SC: And literally in today's environment, we're not doing it alone. All of our missions have international partnerships. They all have industry contributions. So it is not an individual, any one government endeavor. It truly is multinational activity.  

PB: Ok, I saw one over there. 

Audience Question 5: Can you hear me? There we go.  

PB: Got it.  

Audience Question 5: Okay, so I'm, I'm kind of interested to know whether there are any frameworks for laws to require private organizations and governments to retrieve their stuff from space after an expedition. And, how enforceable is it all?  

PB: Do you mean, can I ask, do you mean, stuff that's orbiting the Earth or stuff...  

Audience Question 5: Well, obviously we're all aware of the crowding of...  

PB: Yes.  

Audience Question 5: The satellite band, but, you know, I, I as, there are increasing, projects to settle, and, have bases on the moon and in other planets, and there are lots of expeditions to send things into further space to explore. How does any of that stuff get retrieved?  

PB: Yes.  

Audience Question 5: You know, are we just going to contribute to, to more junk beyond our own sphere?  

PB: No, it's a really good question. The, I mean, in terms of the Earth, we've done a project trying to track Sanju was asking me about that earlier, about trying to track debris in space. So that we can, if, if, two pieces of debris or two spacecraft collide, then you get this massive sort of, another cloud of debris forming. And so, believe it or not, most people in the room, you might not know that there isn't such a thing as space traffic control. Air traffic control yes, but space traffic control is mostly kind of guidelines and norms of behavior. It's not, you know, there's not a kind of an agreement that's the same force between nations. In terms of the, in terms of stuff on the moon and, and sending spacecraft in other parts of, the, the, the solar system, I absolutely understand your point and I feel exactly the same way. I, for a long time, I did field work out in the Nullarbor Desert and, and I love it. And, and, and every now and then you would come across, you know, you would see something in the distance and it would turn out to be, you know, a knacked truck from 1920. And sometimes it was a new one. I don't know, somehow emotionally, I felt I didn't feel as bad when it was the really old one as I do with the new one. I don't know really why that is. My, my hunch is if I'm channeling that emotion, that it's going to take quite a while for humans to be, to make ourselves felt in those environments. I think for a while it'll be more like, like the, the Apollo landing site are protected now as kind of almost like archeological sites. And I certainly think for a little while it'll be like that. But your question, and it's one that I've heard a number of people make, is great because it means that we are going to do that exploration with an eye on, on, on its impact as well. Yeah.  

SC: And I would just add, so again it's a great question, and it's one of the big challenges that we I think as a global space faring community are dealing with right now. And we don't have all the answers. We don't have, you know, all the treaties in place and common agreement on how we're going to do all these things. And I would say even from a U.S. alone standpoint we're still evolving, you know, how we think we should do it. And then there's a whole discussion, again, with all the international partners. So it's a great question. I think it's one of the big challenges, given the fact that we are doing more and more in space and intend to do so. So I think, and I think there is recognition in that we need to do that work. And there, there is focus on it right now,  

PB: The chap just to the, I think you had your hand up first. And then there’s another one here. And then someone way up the back, sorry I see you. 

Audience Question 6:  When NASA searches for extraterrestrial life, do you assume that all forms are carbon based, like, similar to, to what we have on Earth, or do you take into account that it could be something based on different chemistry? So, so if you find a different life, how would you know that that you’ve found it?  

SC: So that's a great, another great question. And I would say, the way we're searching for life right now, I think is based on, you know, carbon, and again, again, going to Nilpena, going to Pilbara, that's my next step on, on this journey. So it is using basically what we know and how we know life evolves. But when you look at the billions and billions of galaxies that are in our universe, and I mean that, there's billions of galaxies in the universe, there may be life forms out there that we totally don't even know how to search for at all. And, you know, and I, I think that's part of what's exciting about what we do. We're going to find things as we go along. 

PB: The chap here and then...Oh sorry, I’m sorry, go ahead. 

Audience Question 7: If humanity or when gains a larger presence on the moon, who governs it?  

SC: So again, we have things like the Artemis Accords where we have come to agreement on, in, in general on how we're going to operate collectively together, as international partners. Much as we do when we collaborate here on Earth. So it's not, it's not like, I don't foresee that we'll have like, well, so I'm, this is total speculation okay. I think it would be a long time before say we would have a president on the moon and that it would be a president just for one country, as opposed to representing how you would govern the whole community. But I think that's a great question because as we create that permanent presence, we do need to intentionally think through that governance process. So I, that's a fabulous question.  

PB: Yep. 

Audience Question 8: Thanks. Just on the governance, I think governance is always best to get the frameworks in early before the crises drive it. From a biological point of view, as was sort of a little bit touched on before, NASA is very good at sterilizing its probes and landers and so forth, and, and small countries do the same thing. And I'm a great fan of the private sector. But, I mean, SpaceX just sent up a transporter with 100 different, you know, satellites and so forth. So in order to ensure that when landings happen on places like Europa, where life may in fact be possible in very primitive form, is there already international code for sterilizing landers? And if there isn’t there surely needs to be so that you don't contaminate the biological situation? 

PB: That's really good question. I, I actually don't I don't know the answer to that. I know that planetary protection is the name for what you've said. NASA is like, kind of defines best practice with that, like you say. I don't know if there's, if there are, if there's an international code. I, that's a really good question. There should be if there isn’t, absolutely.  

SC: Yeah. I don't know if there's an international code, so to speak, but certainly there is a lot of focus on that. The, the scientific community is coming together and, and working towards having that common understanding. Then you take it to the next step, right? So you, you can have the scientific community in agreement around the world, but then you still, how do you implement it like in terms of regulations for industry and things like that?And again, not just for the US but for any spacefaring nation. So yeah, that's another, yet another challenge that we're facing right now. And I think there is a lot of focus on it, as there should be.  

PB: I saw one at the back ages ago, I’m not sure if you still want to ask a question? 

Audience Question 9: Speaking of other countries and stuff like that, what do you make about the, what do you make about other countries, space programs and companies and what they're up to? What's the latest news on that? And, what interests you the most about that, about their attempts and all that?  

SC: Great question. And again, I love the fact that space is global. So in January time frame we're looking at launching a spacecraft called Nisar. It's an Indian, Indian Space Agency spacecraft and NASA is a partner with them, and it's, it's an Earth science spacecraft. So we're going to be studying the Earth, whether, it's really looking at, surface deformation and change across the Earth. So understanding our Earth as an interconnected system and this is a key element of it. We have many, many, spacecraft with the European Space Agency, with the Japanese Space Agency. I could, I could keep going and going and going on the partnerships. So there's a lot of partnerships. I'm not sure, maybe I've gone off on a tangent. Did I answer your question or not? 

Audience Question 9: Yeah, yeah you did. 

SC: Thanks. 

PB: Okay, so there’s a lady just behind you, yes. 

Audience Question 10: Thank you. I'm glad that you visited WA and I'm sure you know it's got, like, the most diverse, like, amazing resources in the world. So I wondered, and you partly answered it when the other man asked about discovering life and how you'd know what it was, and I think you've answered it because you said you're going to Pilbara, but to see the stromatolites. It's just so amazing to me that these things are here and abundant here. So I wondered if you're going to visit and have a look and if that would give you any more headway into research? 

SC: So, yes, I'm excited. That is the next step on our journey is going to Pilbara looking at the stromatolites. So, so we kind of did this excursion I think in reverse from a chronological order, because we started with the, you know, the multi celled organisms and now we're moving backwards in time to the single celled organisms. But again, we wouldn't be here if those things didn't exist. So understanding, you know, how they evolved and what they look like is really important to us. And so I'm super excited. I am not a geologist and I am fascinated by this trip. I am learning so much. 

PB: That's true. She’s saying there are some just a little way south of Perth. And yeah, there's actually some kind of all the way down at the, near the lighthouse, I think it's Cape... There's some really kind of unusual ones down there as well. One over. Oh, you had your hand, okay I'm sorry. Okay, just here first, yes, my colleague. 

Audience Question 11: Hi, sorry, I'm going to be very greedy and I'm going to ask two questions. The first one is, in all the years of a career of managing all these missions and overseeing all these different elements that come into play, what were some of the challenges that you encountered in your, let's say, initial missions that now have maybe become better or smoother because of new practices or new technology? 

SC: That's a great question. It's one that I might actually need to think about for a second. I mean, my brain almost immediately goes to, I think I'm, I may I may not answer your question. So if I don't satisfy you, you can ask me again, but I want to look at, I want to flip your question on its end, because I want to share with you one of my concerns for space industry and NASA, NASA specifically, as you know, as I look at our 50 plus year history, we have a well-established process, one that has built upon failures and, you know, well earned failures. But, you know, we do learn from them and as part of that we add process, we add limitations, to, to make sure that we're being as risk adverse as is appropriate for the mission. And one of the things that worries me is the way we are doing design and engineering is evolving, right? So we have capabilities now that we didn't have before. We can 3D print. In fact, some companies are 3D printing rockets, right? But yet, and we 3D print, we do use 3D printing as an example. And there's AI, there's machine learning, there's generative engineering. There's all these things that are really creative interesting ways that we can again take that next gen step and the way we engineer our spacecraft. And I worry for us that we're set in our ways and aren't taking advantage of them. So in order to do so it really does mean designing an instrument or designing a spacecraft with a totally new mindset. Because if you're going to, if you're going to 3D print it, and again, so what we've done in the past right, you build the piece parts, you machine them, you bolt them together, you solder them, you weld them together, whatever. And we've been doing that with 3D printing, you know okay, I'll 3D print this and then I'm going to bolt it together with something else. And it's like, no, how do you totally change the way you're going to design that from the bottom up, where that 3D printer is creating that really intricate labyrinth of structure to support the spacecraft. So that's a challenge that I think we at NASA need to overcome. And I think, I think it's being worked. I think it's being worked with industry, but I, I think there's real opportunity there, and I'm not even sure to what extent. And maybe you can answer this. Our universities are really looking and then tackling that as a, as a challenge. 

PB: Yeah I mean it's, it's one of those questions, I think it's the, I think, I think probably NASA could or maybe part of the solution there would be, I think NASA could probably benefit from slightly increasing its kind of R&D connection on the engineering side with, with universities, because university teams are, you know, always squeezed for cash. So they're always trying to do more with fewer resources. So, they're always exploring kind of what is the, you know, that type of cutting edge in terms of trying to squeeze more into a smaller form factor and do interesting things with the thermal, you know, and yeah, it's interesting. That's an interesting question, Sandra.  

SC: Thank you.  

PB: You did say there were two questions. 

Audience Question 12: So, yeah. So my second question is that I'm actually a planetary science student and looking forward to work on missions in the future. So, what kind of advice, what kind of skills do you think is important? I'm sure that as a planetary scientist we have to collaborate and work with engineers and other people coming from different fields. So what kind of skills and what kind of advice would you give to students like us?  

SC: So you're a planetary scientist?  

Audience Question 12:  No, I'm just  

SC: Or a engineer.  

Audience Question 12: I have a geology, I have a geology background and currently I'm researching about craters on Mars, so I'm a master's student.  

SC: Okay. Yeah, I mean, so, again, I think getting involved, you know, doing some internships with Space companies. I think, you know, making sure that you're applying for research grants. If you can, if you want to pursue, you know, designing a mission so to speak, it's also a great idea to maybe volunteer to be on a panel that's a selection panel so that you understand how proposals are put together and what makes a strong panel or a proposal versus a weaker proposal. So those are just a few ideas. Why don't you add your thoughts?  

PB: We can have a chat over a cup of tea next week. We work together.  

SC: Yeah, okay.  

PB: One last question over here. 

Audience Question 13: Hello, my name is Sophie. I'm an engineer. I just have a quick question in regards to the project planning, I guess you could say before you plan on say starting up a project on Mars or starting up a project on the moon, is there a set sequence of steps you have to go through? Because whenever we have to operate in a ecologically sensitive area, for example, the outback of WA, we actually have to do a whole heap of studies, and on average it's like 14 years worth of studies before you can even think about breaking ground. So we have to do the geology, we have to do the biology. We actually have to plan out the entire project. And we actually have to put up quite a decent amount of funds as a rehabilitation fund to take into account any ecological harm that could potentially happen to that particular environment before we're even allowed to go anywhere near the environment or to break any ground. So do you have a similar process?  

SC: The answer, the simple answer is yes. We absolutely have to do all those things. And it's a, it's a pretty robust process and it does begin with studies. So yeah, there's a whole life cycle, set of phases to the life cycle of first conceptualizing the mission, making sure, you know, you're designing in all the constraints to meet things like your environmental protection requirements, your planetary protection requirements. You've got to think through that at the very beginning. This ties into the system engineering conversation, right. You've got to understand the whole concept in which you're going to be operating and design from the very beginning. And so yes, we have a very robust set of processes that we apply to our design and development of our missions. 

PB: Thanks, Sandra. Yeah, and I think, I think that's a good way to wrap up. We should probably let this person off the hook at this point. Sandra thanks so much for being with us this evening. Thanks so much for visiting.  

SC: Thank you all. It's been a delight. Thank you. 

 [Recording] Thanks for listening to the talks archive brought to you by the Western Australian Museum Boola Bardip. To listen to other episodes, go to visit.museum.wa.gov.au/episodes/conversation where you can hear a range of talks and conversations. The talks archive is recorded on Whadjuk Nyoongar Boodjar. The Western Australian Museum acknowledges and respects the traditional owners of their ancestral lands, waters and skies.